Is the Greek reliable?

[John of Japan]

We're not Japanese. You're addressing people that are not Japanese. We are not from Japan. If I wanted to play word games with language, I could tease people with Latin, but I am not here to impress folks with my understanding of Latin. I speak English, they speak English, so I will address them in the English language, and not waste their time trying to show off and think they'd be bored to tears and find it to be of no use to them. Besides, I don't see anyone here that I know of wearing togas.

Sigh. My question was entirely relevant. I was not showing off. We are commanded in the KJV to "preach the Gospel to every creature." If you believe in the inerrant preservation of the KJV (I hope I'm not assuming too much), then the obvious question for a missionary is, how do I know what is the "KJV for my language?" So I'm asking you, how do I know what Bible to use in Japanese? I have given you enough information for an answer.

The problem with many defenders of the KJV (and I love it and on occasion defend it) is that they are not missions minded. Your refusal to answer my question about the Japanese Bible would seem to put you in that category. Are you? (I don't want to assume).)

 

[John of Japan]

Herein lies the problem. People don't have the "originals".

Herein lies your problem. This point is a double edged sword. You see, we don't have the original manuscripts of the KJV either. They wrote by hand, with no computers or typewriters, so they had handwritten manuscripts just like the original authors of God-breathed Scriptures. Then they compared and revised (unlike the original authors in Hebrew & Greek), coming up up with a final manuscript. We do not have any of those various drafts of the original KJV.

So, your argument is a complete non sequitur.

 

[Logos1560]

I have found the term to be derogatory because it has been used in the derogatory sense with lumping Bible Believing Born Again Christians with Occultists. I have seen loving, tender hearted, gentle, and meek Christians serious hurt as a result of that abuse with the denial of God's power to preserve His words for all generations.

Your finding may be the incorrect result of your own unproven assumptions. Your canned allegation has not been proven to be true.

While some KJV-only advocates may attempt to lump Bible-believing, born-again Christians with occultists with their allegations attempting to smear present English Bibles [besides the KJV] by linking them to occultists and cults, the accurate and sound term KJV-only used to describe soundly a certain non-scriptural teaching concerning the KJV does not lump Bible-believing, born-again Christians with occultists.

It has not been proven or demonstrated that disagreeing with unproven, non-scriptural, human claims or opinions of men concerning the KJV is at all denying God's power to preserve His words for all generations.

Perhaps it is non-scriptural KJV-only reasoning which in effect denies God's power to preserve the exact words given by inspiration of God and written by the prophets and apostles.

 

[John of Japan]

Just match the bold highlights.

Sorry, but the only bold highlight I saw was that.

 

[John of Japan]

I'm trying to understand here. So since you are quoting Strong's on the meaning of logos, may I assume that you believe the Greek (Scrivener, the one behind the KJV) is authoritative over the KJV?

Funny, but HH never answered this one. I'm still not sure what he believes:
1. Is it that the KJV is the perfect, preserved Word of God? If so, why does he go to the Greek?
2. Is it that the KJV should be the source document for all foreign translations? If so, then why did he reference the Greek?
3. Does he believe that the TR (Scrivener, let's say) is the correct source document?

Care to enlighten us, HH? What actually do you believe?

 

[Heretic Hunter]

I was not seeking any certain answer- I simply wanted to know whee you stand
Once again here is my question:

What I said is that "Correct the KJV is a (British) English Bible translation NOT an (American) English Bible."

Are you saying that British English is identical to American English?
Please, since I used the word "identical) a simple yes or no is all that is needed for an answer.

And your previous statement was NOT an honest answer as you did NOT answer the question.
Apparently you are also a politician - you spew off a dissertation - but said nothing.

So is the answer YES or NO?

My answer was an honest answer based on facts. I am concerned that you may not understand World History, American History, as well as Baptist History pertaining to the use and validity of The Holy Bible. In addition to the facts that I had already shared, did you know that The Holy Bible has been used for the inaugaration of ALL Presidents of The United States of America? Did you also know that President Abraham Lincoln had his own copy of The Holy Bible and read it? Did you know that President Abraham Lincoln's copy of The Holy Bible is not only kept in store at the White House, but has been used in other Presidential inaugarations? How did The Holy Bible come to America? Who brought The Holy Bible to America? Who were the early settlers of America and what language did they speak? Have you heard of the Pilgrims? How was The Holy Bible used in the writing and establishment of the Constitutions of the States, and for the Constitution of The United States of America? Was The Holy Bible taught in Public Schools? When and why was God, The Holy Bible, and prayer kicked out of Public Schools?

In further response of what I wrote in reply to your other post:

Is the Greek reliable?

Have you considered the prophecy about the famine for the hearing of the words of God in Amos 8:11 with the statistical information that I shared with you in my prior answer to your question? Have you ever considered other statisical information pertaining to how the great majority of professing Christians in America do not believe that Jesus Christ is the only way, in spite of what is written in John 14:6 and Acts 4:8-13?

Is the Greek reliable?

 

[Heretic Hunter]

Funny, but HH never answered this one. I'm still not sure what he believes:
1. Is it that the KJV is the perfect, preserved Word of God? If so, why does he go to the Greek?
2. Is it that the KJV should be the source document for all foreign translations? If so, then why did he reference the Greek?
3. Does he believe that the TR (Scrivener, let's say) is the correct source document?

Care to enlighten us, HH? What actually do you believe?

I believe in The Lord Jesus Christ and what He authored, as it is written in The Holy Bible.

 

[Logos1560]

I believe in The Lord Jesus Christ and what He authored, as it is written in The Holy Bible.

Do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ authored the KJV?

 

[Logos1560]

My answer was an honest answer based on facts. I am concerned that you may not understand World History, American History, as well as Baptist History pertaining to the use and validity of The Holy Bible.

What you claim or assume to be facts may not be actually verifiable facts. Perhaps you do not understand history as well as you may assume.

In an appendix entitled “When and how we get our Bible,” a Sunday School Scholars’ Edition of the KJV stated that the Geneva Bible “is pre-eminently the Protestant Bible” (p. 6). Donald Brake maintained that “the Geneva Bible became the cornerstone of the Reformation” (Visual History of the English Bible, p. 150). Brad Taliaferro asserted that the Geneva Bible “became the Bible of the reformation” (Bible Version Encyclopedia, p. 66). An article in Unpublished Word suggested that “the Geneva Bible was the Bible that gave momentum to the Protestant Reformation” (Spring, 2009, p. 11). Concerning the Geneva Bible, Leland Ryken asserted: “This is the Bible of the Reformers” (Word of God in English, p. 49). David Daniell reported: “It was a masterpiece of Renaissance scholarship and printing, and Reformation Bible thoroughness” (Bible in English, p. 291). Larry Stone observed: “The Geneva Bible became part of England’s Protestant national identity” (Story of the Bible, p. 73). Andrew Hadfield suggested that the Geneva Bible “with its extensive commentary helped impose a Protestant outlook on wide sections of the population” (O’Sullivan, Bible as Book, pp. 152-153). Reader’s Digest’s book ABC’s of the Bible maintained that the Geneva Bible “helped shape the course of English history” and was “influencing English and American religious thought over several generations” (pp. 303-304).

The Geneva Bible had a very important influence on America and its founding. Jack P. Lewis maintained that “the Mayflower Compact was signed on the Geneva Bible, and the Geneva played an important role in the history of early America” (The English Bible from KJV to NIV, p. 26). Robert McCrum asserted that “the first New England settlements always championed the use of the Geneva Bible” (Globish: How the English Language, p. 90). David Daniell noted: “The Geneva Bible was at the heart of the founding of those colonies, as will be seen, in a greater way than even [the] KJV” (Bible in English, p. 221). Daniell contended: “This evidence of the regular use of the Geneva Bible can be supported by many documents from the colonies” (p. 425). Cotton Mather (1663-1729) in his history of Harvard referred to “the notes in the Geneva Bible (which were considered authoritative)” (Hall, Genevan Reformation and the American Founding, p. 313). David Cloud maintained that “the Bible brought to America by its first settlers in the early 1600’s was the Geneva Bible” (Rome and the Bible, p. 106). Steve Green and Todd Hillard asserted: “Throughout the 1600’s as people fled the religious persecution of England by crossing the Atlantic, they brought with them their precious Geneva Bibles rather than the ‘King’s Bible.’ The Geneva Bible was more popular than the King James Version for several decades” (The Bible in America, p. 33). G. S. Wegener maintained that the Geneva Bible “was to become equally popular in America, where it accompanied many who exiled themselves from Britain for conscience’s sake” (6000 Years, p. 237). Jack Lewis also confirmed that “the Geneva played an important role in the history of early America” (English Bible, p. 26). James P. Stobaugh asserted: “American was founded upon the Geneva Bible, not the King James Bible” (Studies in World History, Vol. 2, p. 120). J. Paul Foster wrote: “It can truthfully be said that this version shaped America. For it was the Geneva Bible that the Pilgrims brought over with them to America, and, as all their laws and institutions were founded on that Book, and their Bible was the Geneva version, was not America’s childhood shaped by that version?” (The Christian Nation, Vol. 54, June 7, 1911, p. 5). David Hall asserted: “Primary documents confirm the thesis we have been documenting: the Declaration of Independence, acts of the Continental Congress between 1776 and 1787, and the United States Constitution all bear the impress of two centuries of Calvinistic thinking” (Genevan Reformation, p, 420).

 

[Logos1560]

What is actually derogatory and wrong in this thread would be the bogus, false allegation that would attempt to suggest that disagreeing with unproven, non-scriptural, human claims or opinions of men concerning the KJV would supposedly be denying God's power to preserve His words for all generations when it is not.

The accurate, sound use of the term KJV-only for KJV-only teaching is not at all derogatory.

 

[Heretic Hunter]

Herein lies your problem. This point is a double edged sword. You see, we don't have the original manuscripts of the KJV either. They wrote by hand, with no computers or typewriters, so they had handwritten manuscripts just like the original authors of God-breathed Scriptures. Then they compared and revised (unlike the original authors in Hebrew & Greek), coming up up with a final manuscript. We do not have any of those various drafts of the original KJV.

So, your argument is a complete non sequitur.

The LORD's words are preserved forever! It will be my endeavor to share related passages that pertain to God's power with His promise to preserve his words for all generations in a series of posts; each time, referencing your above quotation of remarks. My only request is that you read each passage with care to consider the written words of the Lord.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quicke and powerfull, and sharper then any two edged sword, pearcing euen to the diuiding asunder of soule and spirit, and of the ioynts and marrowe, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Holy Bible is the Sword of the Spirit, and it is the only weapon gifted in the Armour of God - Ephesians 6:10-18

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of saluation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Psa 33:6 By the word of the Lord were the heauens made: and all the host of them, by the breath of his mouth.
Psa 33:7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together, as an heape: he layeth vp the depth in storehouses.
Psa 33:8 Let all the earth feare the Lord: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
Psa 33:9 For he spake, and it was done: he commanded, and it stood fast.
Psa 33:10 The Lord bringeth the counsell of the heathen to nought: he maketh the deuices of the people, of none effect.
Psa 33:11 The counsaile of the Lord standeth for euer, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Psa 33:12 Blessed is the nation, whose God is the Lord: and the people, whom he hath chosen for his owne inheritance.

Pro 1:7 The feare of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fooles despise wisedome and instruction.

Pro 2:1 My sonne, if thou wilt receiue my words, and hide my commaundements with thee;
Pro 2:2 So that thou incline thine eare vnto wisedome, and apply thine heart to vnderstanding:
Pro 2:3 Yea if thou cryest after knowledge, and liftest vp thy voyce for vnderstanding:
Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as siluer, and searchest for her, as for hid treasures:
Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou vnderstand the feare of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.
Pro 2:6 For the Lord giueth wisedome: out of his mouth commeth knowledge, and vnderstanding.
Pro 2:7 He layeth vp sound wisedome for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walke vprightly.
Pro 2:8 He keepeth the pathes of iudgement, and preserueth the way of his Saints.
Pro 2:9 Then shalt thou vnderstand righteousnesse, and iudgement, and equity; yea euery good path.
Pro 2:10 When wisedome entreth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant vnto thy soule;
Pro 2:11 Discretion shall preserue thee, vnderstanding shall keepe thee:
Pro 2:12 To deliuer thee from the way of the euill man, from the man that speaketh froward things.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and leaue not vnto thine owne vnderstanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy wayes acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy pathes.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine owne eyes: feare the Lord, and depart from euill.

Pro 3:11 My sonne, despise not the chastening of the Lord: neither be weary of his correction.
Pro 3:12 For whom the Lord loueth, he correcteth, euen as a father the sonne, in whom he delighteth.
Pro 3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisedome, and the man that getteth vnderstanding.
Pro 3:14 For the merchandise of it is better then the merchandise of siluer, and the gaine thereof, then fine gold.
Pro 3:15 She is more precious then Rubies: and all the things thou canst desire, are not to be compared vnto her.

Pro 8:13 The feare of the Lord is to hate euill: pride and arrogancie, and the euill way, and the froward mouth doe I hate.
Pro 8:14 Counsell is mine, and sound wisedome: I am vnderstanding, I haue strength.
Pro 8:15 By me kings reigne, and princes decree iustice.
Pro 8:16 By me Princes rule, and Nobles, euen all the Iudges of the earth.
Pro 8:17 I loue them that loue me, and those that seeke me early, shall find me.

Pro 8:20 I leade in the way of righteousnesse, in the midst of the pathes of iudgment.
Pro 8:21 That I may cause those that loue me, to inherite substance: and I will fill their treasures.
Pro 8:22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set vp from euerlasting, from the beginning, or euer the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depthes, I was brought forth: when there were no fountaines abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountaines were setled: before the hilles, was I brought foorth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When hee prepared the heauens, I was there: when he set a compasse vpon the face of the depth.
Pro 8:28 When he established the cloudes aboue: when he strengthned the fountaines of the deepe.
Pro 8:29 When he gaue to the sea his decree, that the waters should not passe his commandement: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

 

[Salty]

How did Jim Jones get involved in this discussion???

Unless H sees Jones as a heoro since Jones only used the KJV-0

 

[Logos1560]

The LORD's words are preserved forever! It will be my endeavor to share related passages that pertain to God's power with His promise to preserve his words for all generations in a series of posts; each time, referencing your above quotation of remarks. My only request is that you read each passage with care to consider the written words of the Lord.

The written words of the Lord have been read and considered carefully, and they do not state or teach your KJV-only opinions or human KJV-only reasoning. The LORD's words were given long before 1611, and they were not given to the prophets and apostles in English. Where do the Scriptures say that what God directly gave by inspiration to the prophets and apostles is not what God promised to preserve?

You fail to demonstrate that God's power and God's promises are being at all denied by Bible-believing Christians who may disagree with the opinions of men concerning the KJV.

 

[Salty]

My answer was an honest answer based on facts. I am concerned that you may not understand World History, American History, as well as Baptist History pertaining to the use and validity of The Holy Bible. In addition to the facts that I had already shared, did you know that The Holy Bible has been used for the inaugaration of ALL Presidents of The United States of America? Did you also know that President Abraham Lincoln had his own copy of The Holy Bible and read it? Did you know that President Abraham Lincoln's copy of The Holy Bible is not only kept in store at the White House, but has been used in other Presidential inaugarations? How did The Holy Bible come to America? Who brought The Holy Bible to America? Who were the early settlers of America and what language did they speak? Have you heard of the Pilgrims? How was The Holy Bible used in the writing and establishment of the Constitutions of the States, and for the Constitution of The United States of America? Was The Holy Bible taught in Public Schools? When and why was God, The Holy Bible, and prayer kicked out of Public Schools?

In further response of what I wrote in reply to your other post:

Is the Greek reliable?

Have you considered the prophecy about the famine for the hearing of the words of God in Amos 8:11 with the statistical information that I shared with you in my prior answer to your question? Have you ever considered other statisical information pertaining to how the great majority of professing Christians in America do not believe that Jesus Christ is the only way, in spite of what is written in John 14:6 and Acts 4:8-13?

Is the Greek reliable?

SO BOTTOM LINE YOU ARE EITHER UNWILLING OR UNABLE TO ANSWER MY QUESTION.
There My discussion with H is hereby ended.

 

[Heretic Hunter]

SO BOTTOM LINE YOU ARE EITHER UNWILLING OR UNABLE TO ANSWER MY QUESTION.
There My discussion with H is hereby ended.

I hope that you have recovered from your headache.

 

[John of Japan]

I believe in The Lord Jesus Christ and what He authored, as it is written in The Holy Bible.

So you're not going to answer. Come on, take courage and stand up for what you believe.

I think every single person posting on this thread could agree to this vague statement. I know I could. Personally, I believe exactly what the Bible says about itself and am not afraid to state my beliefs. The Bible was given by inspiration ("God-breathed" is the Greek meaning of inspiration). Since it was given in the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, I believe in that inspiration in the languages in which it was given by God.

 

[Heretic Hunter]

The written words of the Lord have been read and considered carefully, and they do not state or teach your KJV-only opinions or human KJV-only reasoning. The LORD's words were given long before 1611, and they were not given to the prophets and apostles in English. Where do the Scriptures say that what God directly gave by inspiration to the prophets and apostles is not what God promised to preserve?

You fail to demonstrate that God's power and God's promises are being at all denied by Bible-believing Christians who may disagree with the opinions of men concerning the KJV.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Jehovah's Witnesses will agree with you.

 

[John of Japan]

The LORD's words are preserved forever! It will be my endeavor to share related passages that pertain to God's power with His promise to preserve his words for all generations in a series of posts; each time, referencing your above quotation of remarks. My only request is that you read each passage with care to consider the written words of the Lord.

You still won't take a stand, will you. Don't be wishy washy. Tell us, in what form did God preserve His Word? In the original languages (the original mss of what we do not have), or in the KJV (the original mss of which we do not have)?

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quicke and powerfull, and sharper then any two edged sword, pearcing euen to the diuiding asunder of soule and spirit, and of the ioynts and marrowe, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Holy Bible is the Sword of the Spirit, and it is the only weapon gifted in the Armour of God - Ephesians 6:10-18

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of saluation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Psa 33:6 By the word of the Lord were the heauens made: and all the host of them, by the breath of his mouth.
Psa 33:7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together, as an heape: he layeth vp the depth in storehouses.
Psa 33:8 Let all the earth feare the Lord: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
Psa 33:9 For he spake, and it was done: he commanded, and it stood fast.
Psa 33:10 The Lord bringeth the counsell of the heathen to nought: he maketh the deuices of the people, of none effect.
Psa 33:11 The counsaile of the Lord standeth for euer, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Psa 33:12 Blessed is the nation, whose God is the Lord: and the people, whom he hath chosen for his owne inheritance.

Pro 1:7 The feare of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fooles despise wisedome and instruction.

Pro 2:1 My sonne, if thou wilt receiue my words, and hide my commaundements with thee;
Pro 2:2 So that thou incline thine eare vnto wisedome, and apply thine heart to vnderstanding:
Pro 2:3 Yea if thou cryest after knowledge, and liftest vp thy voyce for vnderstanding:
Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as siluer, and searchest for her, as for hid treasures:
Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou vnderstand the feare of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.
Pro 2:6 For the Lord giueth wisedome: out of his mouth commeth knowledge, and vnderstanding.
Pro 2:7 He layeth vp sound wisedome for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walke vprightly.
Pro 2:8 He keepeth the pathes of iudgement, and preserueth the way of his Saints.
Pro 2:9 Then shalt thou vnderstand righteousnesse, and iudgement, and equity; yea euery good path.
Pro 2:10 When wisedome entreth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant vnto thy soule;
Pro 2:11 Discretion shall preserue thee, vnderstanding shall keepe thee:
Pro 2:12 To deliuer thee from the way of the euill man, from the man that speaketh froward things.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and leaue not vnto thine owne vnderstanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy wayes acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy pathes.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine owne eyes: feare the Lord, and depart from euill.

Pro 3:11 My sonne, despise not the chastening of the Lord: neither be weary of his correction.
Pro 3:12 For whom the Lord loueth, he correcteth, euen as a father the sonne, in whom he delighteth.
Pro 3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisedome, and the man that getteth vnderstanding.
Pro 3:14 For the merchandise of it is better then the merchandise of siluer, and the gaine thereof, then fine gold.
Pro 3:15 She is more precious then Rubies: and all the things thou canst desire, are not to be compared vnto her.

Pro 8:13 The feare of the Lord is to hate euill: pride and arrogancie, and the euill way, and the froward mouth doe I hate.
Pro 8:14 Counsell is mine, and sound wisedome: I am vnderstanding, I haue strength.
Pro 8:15 By me kings reigne, and princes decree iustice.
Pro 8:16 By me Princes rule, and Nobles, euen all the Iudges of the earth.
Pro 8:17 I loue them that loue me, and those that seeke me early, shall find me.

Pro 8:20 I leade in the way of righteousnesse, in the midst of the pathes of iudgment.
Pro 8:21 That I may cause those that loue me, to inherite substance: and I will fill their treasures.
Pro 8:22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set vp from euerlasting, from the beginning, or euer the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depthes, I was brought forth: when there were no fountaines abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountaines were setled: before the hilles, was I brought foorth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When hee prepared the heauens, I was there: when he set a compasse vpon the face of the depth.
Pro 8:28 When he established the cloudes aboue: when he strengthned the fountaines of the deepe.
Pro 8:29 When he gaue to the sea his decree, that the waters should not passe his commandement: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Interesting. So you are quoting from one of the 1611 original editions, is that correct? Is that what you believe the Lord preserved His Word in? (Remembering that we do not have the original mss of the KJV.)

 

[Logos1560]

Jehovah's Witnesses have published their own editions of the KJV. In 1907, they published the Bible Students Edition of the KJV. In 1942, they purchased plates for an edition of the KJV with marginal references from the A. J. Holman Company, and printed over 1,858,000 of these KJV's by 1992. They produced an edition of the KJV (perhaps the one just mentioned), which is "complete with a concordance especially designed for use by Jehovah's Witnesses in their field ministry".

 

[Heretic Hunter]

How did Jim Jones get involved in this discussion???

Unless H sees Jones as a heoro since Jones only used the KJV-0

Maybe you have a bit of fog from the headache and missed the comprehension of reference to the "other jesus"?

Ole' Jimmy Jones wasn't the first false Christ or false prophet to hi-jack The Holy Bible to wrest the Scriptures to deceive men and draw them away after himself. The S.D.A., Mormons, JWs, and others have done the same thing.

Just because false Christs, false prophets, and false teachers wrest the written words of God, twisting them to teach doctrines of devils, does not mean that we should surrender The Holy Bible to them.