Is the Greek reliable?

[John of Japan]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, & the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus Christ is λόγος Logos and is the Author of The Holy Bible, not Rick Norris the Author of The Unbound Scriptures.

G3056
λόγος

logos

log'-os

From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

Total KJV occurrences: 330

I'm trying to understand here. So since you are quoting Strong's on the meaning of logos, may I assume that you believe the Greek (Scrivener, the one behind the KJV) is authoritative over the KJV?

 

[John of Japan]

Say the word You is in a KJB verse.

Translate the Word You to the corresponding Japanese word.

Okay. What about the fact that there are up to five levels of honorifics in Japanese? So which level of "you" should I use? (There are several words for "you," depending on the level of honorifics.) And what about the Japanese syntax, which is completely different from English?

Catch you tomorrow. Have to run.

 

[Heretic Hunter]

Not actually true. The definitions of many words in the KJV have changed. For example, I just taught a theology class, and I asked the students (37 of them) who knew what "let" meant in 2 Thess. 2:7, and they all got it wrong. Do you know what it meant in 1611?

I just had a late lunch; bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich with mayo, so it will take a few minutes or more for me to catch up on your other posts.

The question that I ask people today, is, do you understand what is written in that passage as it pertains to End Times Prophecy? Also, can you find the related prophesies in the Prophetic Books?

I disagree that the words of the Lord have changed. While people have adapted, modified, and/or changed words and their definitions for whatever reason or trend, the words of the Lord never change; their meaning never change. People have been dumbed down. Don't believe me? Turn on the T.V. set and have a look. Bruce Jenner, Michelle Obama, Chastity Bono, and other men and have changed their gender to appear as being of the opposite sex. Most people don't know that Michelle Obama is a man. They use all sorts of vocabulary too, much of which is profane and vulgar. They have taken the words such as "sick" and "wicked" to describe something as being "good", while they take what is "good" and call it "evil", and that is demonstrated when they allow for drag queens, men pretending to be women, to sit in kindergarten classes to read books to the wee little children, and/or teach Yoga and hypnosis to the same age groups. We are so close to the fulfillment of 2Thessalonians 2:7, as the altar for the 3rd Temple was dedicated on December 10, 2018. It is just a matter of time before they will announce the restoration of Jerusalem with the rebuilding of the 3rd Temple per Daniel 9:25-27. Have you given that passage much thought with all of the things going on around the world today, including withinThe United States of America, as we witness the President participate in religious ceremonies with Muslims and Hindus, and as there has been a great falling away from the faith with so many people embracing the false prophets and their dead gods? Can you discern how Romans 1 fits into the End Times reality of the world becoming likened unto Sodom and Gomorrah? I'm not going to quibble over definitions of 1611 and right now. There are much greater issues at stake with people being deceived by the billions, including those in many Baptist Churches.

 

[Heretic Hunter]

Okay. What about the fact that there are up to five levels of honorifics in Japanese? So which level of "you" should I use? (There are several words for "you," depending on the level of honorifics.) And what about the Japanese syntax, which is completely different from English?

Catch you tomorrow. Have to run.

We're not Japanese. You're addressing people that are not Japanese. We are not from Japan. If I wanted to play word games with language, I could tease people with Latin, but I am not here to impress folks with my understanding of Latin. I speak English, they speak English, so I will address them in the English language, and not waste their time trying to show off and dazzle them with how much I know about Latin. I'd think they'd be bored to tears and find it to be of no use to them. Besides, I don't see anyone here that I know of wearing togas.

 

[Rob_BW]

We're not Japanese. You're addressing people that are not Japanese. We are not from Japan. If I wanted to play word games with language, I could tease people with Latin, but I am not here to impress folks with my understanding of Latin. I speak English, they speak English, so I will address them in the English language, and not waste their time trying to show off and dazzle them with how much I know about Latin. I'd think they'd be bored to tears and find it to be of no use to them. Besides, I don't see anyone here that I know of wearing togas.

So you've accused a multi-decade missionary and translator of "playing word games?"

Well, that's a bold strategy, for sure.

 

[Heretic Hunter]

So you've accused a multi-decade missionary and translator of "playing word games?"

Well, that's a bold strategy, for sure.

Would you like for me to dazzle you with Latin, French, or Spanish? What good would it do if you don't speak those languages?

By the way, I meant the Brother no disrepect.

 

[Rob_BW]

Would you like for me to dazzle you with Latin, French, or Spanish? What good would it do if you don't speak those languages?

When I was majoring in English, the graduation requirement was that you had to study two foreign languages, and one of them had to be from outside the Indo-European familiy.

So claiming that studying other languages does nothing to help our understanding of our own probably isn't going to get far with me.

 

[Heretic Hunter]

I'm trying to understand here. So since you are quoting Strong's on the meaning of logos, may I assume that you believe the Greek (Scrivener, the one behind the KJV) is authoritative over the KJV?

I don't pretend to be a Greek Scholar, but I know that the word "Logos" is the Greek word for Jesus Christ in John 1:1 I'm not the only one that knows that. I'm surprised that with your being a teacher of the Greek, that you don't understand that.

 

[Heretic Hunter]

When I was majoring in English, the graduation requirement was that you had to study two foreign languages, and one of them had to be from outside the Indo-European familiy.

So claiming that studying other languages does nothing to help our understanding of our own probably isn't going to get far with me.

Seein's how I learned a bit about three other languages, I ain't gonna disagree that it's a might bit beneficial to know a thing or two about how other people speak can't make somebody a tiny bit smarter than the average bear. I learned proper languaging speaking skills for each language, and so you wanna know what I found out? Well, ready or not, here's a tadbit of what I figured out; people that spoke those languages have just as much different accents and dialects that more than half 'em couldn't make out heads or tails of what I was speaking to them. I was thinking hot diggity dog, those folks ain't much different than the dumbed down folk back home. If people spent more time learning their language, instead of watching T.V., music videos, playing video games, and chatting away about nothing on so-called social media, they might would learn a thing or two. How much more so would they learn if they simply sat down to read the Bible, praying, and asking God to teach them. They can learn a whole lot more if they simply sat down to read their Bibles with prayer, than they can with any amount of years wasted in School where they learn a whole lot of nothing. I spent years in School, and went to College and learned absolutely nothing. It was a total waste of time. The day I began to learn was the day I sat down to simply read the Bible with prayer to God for understanding.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

My point, simply put, is: "Adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things" (2 Tim. 2:10, KJV). If you are serious about defending the KJV, do it according to the KJV and how it teaches us as believers to act. Otherwise, you will simply drive people away from your position and from the beloved KJV.

I like the KJV, but it sounds like that would be good; unfortunately there is a certain cultic mindset that is drawn to this type of thing. Cults have an easy time with the KJV, as it is archaic in a number of key places and they capitalize on it.

I find it fascinating how much time KJV preachers spend explaining its English to English speakers. The time would be much better spent explaining the Greek and Hebrew.

 

[Heretic Hunter]

I like the KJV, but it sounds like that would be good; unfortunately there is a certain cultic mindset that is drawn to this type of thing. Cults have an easy time with the KJV, as it is archaic in a number of key places and they capitalize on it.

I find it fascinating how much time KJV preachers spend explaining its English to English speakers. The time would be much better spent explaining the Greek and Hebrew.

Herein lies the problem. People don't have the "originals". If they did have the "orginals", there are none that speak fluent Biblical Greek, write Biblical Greek, or read Biblical Greek. This is not a "Greek" speaking Nation. This is an English speaking Nation, and what we have is The Holy Bible, but the Lukewarm Church Community chooses to surrender The Holy Bible, which is the Sword of the Spirit, to the theives and robbers of the Occult, such as the Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists that have the proven track record of wresting the Scriptures to teach doctrines of devils, as well as a history of false prophecy. MMhmmm, The Holy Bible has sustained Christians for generations for over 500 years, including Kings, Churches, Schools, and families around the world. The false prophets show up on the scene some 400 years later; hi-jack The Holy Bible, twisting the Scriptures to deceive people by the millions; less than a hundred years after that, The Holy Bible, God, and prayer are kicked out of Schools, then some 20 years after that, The Holy Bible is kicked out of Churches as the population is dumbed down, kicking God and prayer out too, as they embrace the false prophets that stole The Holy Bible away from them, so it's no wonder that the Lukewarm Church want to give up the Sword of the Spirit, because they don't have the Armour of God, including the Shield of Faith. That's why they have hugged up to the Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, Buddhists, and as we see, many have began to embrace the antichrist doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

But as for me, and my house, we shall serve the LORD! We will not surrender the Sword of the Spirit to the Devil!

 

[John of Japan]

I just had a late lunch; bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich with mayo, so it will take a few minutes or more for me to catch up on your other posts.

The question that I ask people today, is, do you understand what is written in that passage as it pertains to End Times Prophecy? Also, can you find the related prophesies in the Prophetic Books?

I disagree that the words of the Lord have changed. While people have adapted, modified, and/or changed words and their definitions for whatever reason or trend, the words of the Lord never change; their meaning never change. People have been dumbed down. Don't believe me? Turn on the T.V. set and have a look. Bruce Jenner, Michelle Obama, Chastity Bono, and other men and have changed their gender to appear as being of the opposite sex. Most people don't know that Michelle Obama is a man. They use all sorts of vocabulary too, much of which is profane and vulgar. They have taken the words such as "sick" and "wicked" to describe something as being "good", while they take what is "good" and call it "evil", and that is demonstrated when they allow for drag queens, men pretending to be women, to sit in kindergarten classes to read books to the wee little children, and/or teach Yoga and hypnosis to the same age groups. We are so close to the fulfillment of 2Thessalonians 2:7, as the altar for the 3rd Temple was dedicated on December 10, 2018. It is just a matter of time before they will announce the restoration of Jerusalem with the rebuilding of the 3rd Temple per Daniel 9:25-27. Have you given that passage much thought with all of the things going on around the world today, including withinThe United States of America, as we witness the President participate in religious ceremonies with Muslims and Hindus, and as there has been a great falling away from the faith with so many people embracing the false prophets and their dead gods? Can you discern how Romans 1 fits into the End Times reality of the world becoming likened unto Sodom and Gomorrah? I'm not going to quibble over definitions of 1611 and right now. There are much greater issues at stake with people being deceived by the billions, including those in many Baptist Churches.

I'm out for coffee with my family.

So the short answer amid these irrelevant statements is that no, you don't know what "letteth" meant in 1611 as compared to what it means now. This example is a classic one for this discussion, and you won't even comment on it. In a word, you fled linguistically.

And if you think that the meaning of the words of the English language have not changed since 1611, you are not competent enough linguistically to argue for and stand up for the KJV.

 

[John of Japan]

I like the KJV, but it sounds like that would be good; unfortunately there is a certain cultic mindset that is drawn to this type of thing. Cults have an easy time with the KJV, as it is archaic in a number of key places and they capitalize on it.

I find it fascinating how much time KJV preachers spend explaining its English to English speakers. The time would be much better spent explaining the Greek and Hebrew.

Forgive me, but I don't know what you mean by that in reference to my post.

 

[John of Japan]

Herein lies the problem. People don't have the "originals". If they did have the "orginals", there are none that speak fluent Biblical Greek, write Biblical Greek, or read Biblical Greek.

Um, Biblical Greek is no longer a spoken language, so of course no one speaks it. But I read it and write it fluently. I translate at least a verse of it every day. So this argument is a non-starter. I have three different friends, all Bible translators, two of who have Ph.D.'s in Hebrew and are fluent in it. One of them has consulted on literally dozens of missionary translations around the world, all from the traditional texts. Another has translated the Bible (from the traditional texts) into Mongolian, Spanish, and other languages. He's the one without the Ph.D., but he studied his Hebrew in Israel.

My son has a Ph.D. in N.T. and teaches Hebrew here, and also teaches Greek in our seminary. We have a linguist who teaches (with us two) in our M.A. program in Bible translation who speaks 9 languages.

So don't give me this garbage about "no one speaks Hebrew or Greek." It's a ridiculously wrong argument.

 

[John of Japan]

I don't pretend to be a Greek Scholar, but I know that the word "Logos" is the Greek word for Jesus Christ in John 1:1 I'm not the only one that knows that. I'm surprised that with your being a teacher of the Greek, that you don't understand that.

Thanks for the laugh--I snorted out loud. Good thing I didn't have a mouth full of coffee at that moment. I'll be teaching Greek 102 starting Monday, and every single one of my beginning students could tell you the meaning of logos in John 1:1. You learn it very early in Greek 101.

Come on, you can insult me more effectively than that.

 

[Heretic Hunter]

Thanks for the laugh--I snorted out loud. Good thing I didn't have a mouth full of coffee at that moment. I'll be teaching Greek 102 starting Monday, and every single one of my beginning students could tell you the meaning of logos in John 1:1. You learn it very early in Greek 101.

Come on, you can insult me more effectively than that.

The truth is, that was no insult. It was not and is not my intention to insult. We just had an exchange, and you demonstrated not to know that Jesus Christ is Logos per John 1:1 Are you acknowledging the Biblical fact that Jesus Christ is Logos?

 

[Heretic Hunter]

Um, Biblical Greek is no longer a spoken language, so of course no one speaks it. But I read it and write it fluently. I translate at least a verse of it every day. So this argument is a non-starter. I have three different friends, all Bible translators, two of who have Ph.D.'s in Hebrew and are fluent in it. One of them has consulted on literally dozens of missionary translations around the world, all from the traditional texts. Another has translated the Bible (from the traditional texts) into Mongolian, Spanish, and other languages. He's the one without the Ph.D., but he studied his Hebrew in Israel.

My son has a Ph.D. in N.T. and teaches Hebrew here, and also teaches Greek in our seminary. We have a linguist who teaches (with us two) in our M.A. program in Bible translation who speaks 9 languages.

So don't give me this garbage about "no one speaks Hebrew or Greek." It's a ridiculously wrong argument.

If you can't give a straight forward answer with acknowledgement of the Biblical fact that Jesus Christ is Logos per John 1:1 I will question those credentials.

 

[John of Japan]

The truth is, that was no insult. It was not and is not my intention to insult. We just had an exchange, and you demonstrated not to know that Jesus Christ is Logos per John 1:1 Are you acknowledging the Biblical fact that Jesus Christ is Logos?

I absolutely believe that Jesus is the logos, the Word from God.

And I DID NOT demonstrate that I did not know that "Jesus is the Logos as per John 1:1." Do you always misrepresent people this badly?????

The truth is, your goal seemed to be to attack another poster, who simply had the word in his screen name. And you don't even know whether he is referring to Jesus as the Logos, or a different meaning. (See below.)

I thought it was crazy that you would even ask a Greek teacher about logos. It's such a basic word, occurring in 316 verses of the TR NT. We have to know that word or we can't teach Greek.

Here is a definition of the word from one of the smaller Greek lexicons. Surely you can see that it has very complicated meanings. And lest you attack the authors of this lexicon (there are some defenders of the KJV who attack lexicons), they are born again missionary Bible translators. I've corresponded with Dr. Friberg, the husband.

Dr. Friberg (and Mrs. and Neva Miller) Anlex lexicon:
"logos, ou, o` related to le,gw (arrange in order); (1) as a general term for speaking, but always with rational content word, speech (MT 22.46); often opposite ergon (deed) (1J 3.18); (2) with the specific translation depending on a wide variety of contexts; (a) question (MT 21.24); (b) prophecy (JN 2.22); (c) command (2P 3.5); (d) report (AC 11.22 ); (e) message, teaching (LU 4.32); (f) declaration, statement, assertion (MT 12.32), opposite mu/qoj (legend); (g) plural, of words forming a unity of expression discourse, speech, teaching, conversation (MT 7.24); (h) of what is being discussed subject, thing, matter ( MK 9.10); (3) of divine revelation; (a) word, message (of God) (JN 10.35 ); (b) commandment(s) (MT 15.6); (c) of God's full self-revelation through Jesus Christ the Word (JN 1.1); (d) of the content of the gospel word, message (LU 5.1); (4) in a somewhat legal or technical sense; (a) accusation, matter, charge; (b) account, reckoning (RO 14.12); (c) reason, motive (AC 10.29)."

 

[John of Japan]

If you can't give a straight forward answer with acknowledgement of the Biblical fact that Jesus Christ is Logos per John 1:1 I will question those credentials.

You are basically calling me a heretic with absolutely no proof. See my previous post.

 

[Salty]

If you can't give a straight forward answer with acknowledgement of the Biblical fact that Jesus Christ is Logos per John 1:1 I will question those credentials.

this from the man who wrote an extended essay - when all I asked for was a one word answer.