is the Holy Spirit Involved in the "Modern Charasmatic' Movemnent at all?

[awaken]

And this gibberish that most spout is NOT a known language!

"Da lo ta kask mi fa gi mola cotma" is not a known language!

See, I just spoke in "tongues".

NO, tongues is a known language! Again, the language is just not known to the speaker.

 

[awaken]

Awaken you admit to speaking in tongues, so here are a few basic questions that need an honest answer:

Remember, however, that the word translated "tongue" means language, as in "known language."
"How hear we every man in our own language, wherein we were born."

1. Do you know what language you are speaking?

Did the speakers themselves know the language they were speaking, NO! IT was the ones hearing that knew the language. How would it be supernatural if I spoke a language I already knew??

2. Do you have an interpreter?

THe Holy Spirit is my interpreter. We are told to pray for the interpretation..and Yes! He has interpreted for me what I was praying in the spirit. I have never given a message in tongues in the church to be interpreted!

3. Does he know what language you speak, and if so does he tell you, and can both language and interpretation be verified?

These are your qualifications, not Gods! Nowhere in scriptures does it say you have to know the language you are speaking!! If you knew the language then why does he tell you to pray for an interpretation?? Common sense if you ask me!

4. If you don't have an interpreter and you don't know what language how do you know it is from God?

THere are things that God deposits in our spirit when we pray in tongues...this is why it says build yourselves up praying in the Holy Ghost. THe Holy Spirit is the one praying through you (the Spirit gives the utterance).

5. How do you know what you are saying is actually praising God?

I would rather have faith in what the Holy Spirit prays than what I pray anyway. But again God usually gives the interpretation when asked.

6. In fact, if you are speaking in "another tongue" are you sure that it is an actual language.

I just obey! I have faith in what the word says!

7. If it is not a language, but just gibberish, as Thomas alluded to, are you sure that even God can understand it?

1 Cor. 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, BUT UNTO GOD! If it is God the Holy Spirit speaking/ giving the utterance as scriptures teach, why wouldn't He understand?

8. Can you give any Scriptural evidence that God can understand your gibberish?

I just did..and I do not think God appreciates you calling gibberish what He calls Holy FAITH! I am not saying that there is not false out there...there are a lot of false things going on in the Christian world..but the real is there too!

9. If you are adamant that it is not "gibberish" can you provide proof or evidence that it is a known language and what language it is. You should be able to do that?

Where does it say I have to prove anything to you or anyone? Maybe you can prove to me that you are a christian??

10. Most of all, why would you even pray (communication) in a language which you cannot understand, when the purpose of prayer is communication--pleading on your behalf and the behalf of others, and praising God for who he is, if you don't know what you are saying? Would not that be better done in a person's mother tongue when they can best be most eloquent in their praises to God, and think more easily about what they want to express to God?

Again, I do both... I pray in the spirit and pray with my understanding! But I trust what the Holy Spirit prays through me more than what I understand..because I know what he says is perfect! I just surrender my mouth to him!

 

[evangelist-7]

What makes you think God HAS to cooperate with man!

Sorry for the typo ... I meant to say ...

Throughout Scripture, we see that it is God's desire that He accomplish His Plan on earth
with the co-operation OF man ... hand-in-hand.

Praise the Lord! Thou art off the hook (this time)! Whoopie!
.

 

[evangelist-7]

Awaken, O thou brethren!

Many kudos for your patient handling of da 10 qvestions!

Mnogo! ... Bulgarian for "many'.

See, you learned something here today.
.

 

[DHK]

Did the speakers themselves know the language they were speaking, NO! IT was the ones hearing that knew the language. How would it be supernatural if I spoke a language I already knew??

It would be supernatural if you spoke in a known language (like Mohawk) that God would give you a ministry among the aboriginal people. That would be a miracle. The word "tongues" means languages. Yes, they knew what languages they were speaking. God gave them that ability. They spoke with other languages the wonderful works of God. How could they speak the wonderful works of God if they didn't know what they were speaking? The miracle is in the speaking of different languages, not in the listening. The miracle has always been "the speaking of languages." They had been given a gift of languages--they knew what they were saying, the language in which they were saying, and were able to think in that language for that temporary period of time.

THe Holy Spirit is my interpreter. We are told to pray for the interpretation..and Yes! He has interpreted for me what I was praying in the spirit. I have never given a message in tongues in the church to be interpreted!

On the first count is not biblical simply because it is outside of the local church. The gifts were given to the local church. Chapter 12-14 are a unit. Chapter 12 describes how the gifts are given to the local church. It describes the various members of the local church and how each member of the church has its own gift. It tells very explicitly how that not all have the gift of tongues and not all should seek it.
Secondly, it never says that the gift of tongues is a prayer language. That is a misuse of Scripture. Tongues was for edification of believers, but only if there was an interpreter. Otherwise it was a totally useless gift in the church.
Thirdly, give evidence that the Holy Spirit is your interpreter. The Bible doesn't say that. That is not Biblical. Nowhere is that in Scripture. Always is there another person to interpret tongues. Nowhere does it say one can have the Holy Spirit as an interpreter.

These are your qualifications, not Gods!

They are not my qualifications! I set before you what God sets forth in His word--no more; no less.

Nowhere in scriptures does it say you have to know the language you are speaking!! If you knew the language then why does he tell you to pray for an interpretation?? Common sense if you ask me!

The interpretation was for the sake of the Jews. Tongues were a sign for the Jews. Perhaps it was interpreted back into Hebrew, their national language just for them, or in a mixed assembly it could have been translated back into Greek, the international or universal language of the time that everyone knew. If Paul used it in his travels, and went to Spain then (perhaps) God gave him the gift of tongues in Spanish for those who would not understand Greek. The interpretation would be for the rest of the congregation, but specifically for the Jews, to whom it was a sign. If Paul was speaking in Spanish he would know and understand what he was speaking. It is a gift of languages. How else would he be able to think of what he was going to say as he expounded the Word of God? The interpretation was primarily for the Jews. It was a sign for the Jews.

THere are things that God deposits in our spirit when we pray in tongues...this is why it says build yourselves up praying in the Holy Ghost. THe Holy Spirit is the one praying through you (the Spirit gives the utterance).

What does God deposit in you that you cannot understand?
That concept is foreign to the Bible. The emphasis in the Bible, both OT and NT, is understanding. We are to always be mindful, to think, to study, to take heed, to search out, etc. Our minds are to occupy, not to be emptied as one does when the speak in tongues. This is contrary to Scripture. It is not building yourself up in the Holy Spirit. It is opening yourself up to demonic activity. Where does it say in the Bible that the Holy Spirit gives you utterance? Today is not the Day of Pentecost.

I would rather have faith in what the Holy Spirit prays than what I pray anyway. But again God usually gives the interpretation when asked.

And how would you know if the interpretation is right? Maybe you were just praising the devil. Some in Corinth were doing that according to 1Cor.12:1-3. Your faith is blind, something that the Bible warns us against. False religions have blind faith. We have faith in Christ. Our faith is not blind. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. That is not blind faith. But you blindly believe that it is the Holy Spirit, and that his praying is more accurate then what you would pray. That is blind faith. You don't know if it is the Holy Spirit. How would you know that, especially since the Bible indicates that the Holy Spirit does not operate that way.

I just obey! I have faith in what the word says!

That is not obedience. Obedience requires interpretation.
Obedience confines tongues to the local church, for they are gifts given to the local church and not to be used selfishly.
God never gave private selfish gifts. They were all for the edification of all the church. For example, was the gift of healing to be taken home to be used for the healing of self?? No, it was for the church.

1 Cor. 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, BUT UNTO GOD! If it is God the Holy Spirit speaking/ giving the utterance as scriptures teach, why wouldn't He understand?

God doesn't understand gibberish any more than I do. It is not a language. It is random syllables run together completely incomprehensible to all--including the Holy Spirit and God.
You have twisted and perverted the verse you quoted.
He that speaks in a language does not speak to man but speaks to God.
(The word "unknown" is not in the original, and that is why it is in italics.)
God can understand all languages (not gibberish). But without interpretation, no one else in the church can understand the foreign language spoken, so don't speak it. This was a rebuke to the Corinthians. Remember it is not gibberish, they were actual languages that they could understand that were previously unknown to them. They were a gift--the gift of languages. If this gift were operative today, then missionaries would not have to go to language school.

I just did..and I do not think God appreciates you calling gibberish what He calls Holy FAITH! I am not saying that there is not false out there...there are a lot of false things going on in the Christian world..but the real is there too!

No, you took a verse out of context and misinterpreted it. You do that a lot. When you string a bunch of syllables together at random it is not a language; it is gibberish that no one, not even God, can understand. The Mormons and Hindus do the same thing. So what makes you think it is of God?
It is not called the most Holy Faith any where in the Bible. Where do you get that from?

Where does it say I have to prove anything to you or anyone? Maybe you can prove to me that you are a christian??

Here is what the Bible says:
Prove all things.
Test the spirits to see if they are of God.
Yes, I can give you a testimony to demonstrate that I am a Christian, but you cannot give any evidence that the gibberish you speak is of God. The evidence you need is:
What is the language you speak in, and how do you know?
What are you saying when you speak in tongues and how do you know?
Have you ever spoken in any of these languages before?

Again, I do both... I pray in the spirit and pray with my understanding! But I trust what the Holy Spirit prays through me more than what I understand..because I know what he says is perfect! I just surrender my mouth to him!

The Bible tells us:
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Speaking in tongues avails you nothing.
Communication with God must have understanding. Gibberish has no understanding and is not prayer at all. You call it "in the spirit." What "spirit"? You trust the Holy Spirit, even though you don't know what you are saying. God doesn't work that way, and never has. He is not the author of confusion.

 

[awaken]

It would be supernatural if you spoke in a known language (like Mohawk) that God would give you a ministry among the aboriginal people. That would be a miracle. The word "tongues" means languages. Yes, they knew what languages they were speaking. God gave them that ability. They spoke with other languages the wonderful works of God. How could they speak the wonderful works of God if they didn't know what they were speaking? The miracle is in the speaking of different languages, not in the listening. The miracle has always been "the speaking of languages." They had been given a gift of languages--they knew what they were saying, the language in which they were saying, and were able to think in that language for that temporary period of time.

On the first count is not biblical simply because it is outside of the local church. The gifts were given to the local church. Chapter 12-14 are a unit. Chapter 12 describes how the gifts are given to the local church. It describes the various members of the local church and how each member of the church has its own gift. It tells very explicitly how that not all have the gift of tongues and not all should seek it.
Secondly, it never says that the gift of tongues is a prayer language. That is a misuse of Scripture. Tongues was for edification of believers, but only if there was an interpreter. Otherwise it was a totally useless gift in the church.
Thirdly, give evidence that the Holy Spirit is your interpreter. The Bible doesn't say that. That is not Biblical. Nowhere is that in Scripture. Always is there another person to interpret tongues. Nowhere does it say one can have the Holy Spirit as an interpreter.

They are not my qualifications! I set before you what God sets forth in His word--no more; no less.

The interpretation was for the sake of the Jews. Tongues were a sign for the Jews. Perhaps it was interpreted back into Hebrew, their national language just for them, or in a mixed assembly it could have been translated back into Greek, the international or universal language of the time that everyone knew. If Paul used it in his travels, and went to Spain then (perhaps) God gave him the gift of tongues in Spanish for those who would not understand Greek. The interpretation would be for the rest of the congregation, but specifically for the Jews, to whom it was a sign. If Paul was speaking in Spanish he would know and understand what he was speaking. It is a gift of languages. How else would he be able to think of what he was going to say as he expounded the Word of God? The interpretation was primarily for the Jews. It was a sign for the Jews.

What does God deposit in you that you cannot understand?
That concept is foreign to the Bible. The emphasis in the Bible, both OT and NT, is understanding. We are to always be mindful, to think, to study, to take heed, to search out, etc. Our minds are to occupy, not to be emptied as one does when the speak in tongues. This is contrary to Scripture. It is not building yourself up in the Holy Spirit. It is opening yourself up to demonic activity. Where does it say in the Bible that the Holy Spirit gives you utterance? Today is not the Day of Pentecost.

And how would you know if the interpretation is right? Maybe you were just praising the devil. Some in Corinth were doing that according to 1Cor.12:1-3. Your faith is blind, something that the Bible warns us against. False religions have blind faith. We have faith in Christ. Our faith is not blind. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. That is not blind faith. But you blindly believe that it is the Holy Spirit, and that his praying is more accurate then what you would pray. That is blind faith. You don't know if it is the Holy Spirit. How would you know that, especially since the Bible indicates that the Holy Spirit does not operate that way.

That is not obedience. Obedience requires interpretation.
Obedience confines tongues to the local church, for they are gifts given to the local church and not to be used selfishly.
God never gave private selfish gifts. They were all for the edification of all the church. For example, was the gift of healing to be taken home to be used for the healing of self?? No, it was for the church.

God doesn't understand gibberish any more than I do. It is not a language. It is random syllables run together completely incomprehensible to all--including the Holy Spirit and God.
You have twisted and perverted the verse you quoted.
He that speaks in a language does not speak to man but speaks to God.
(The word "unknown" is not in the original, and that is why it is in italics.)
God can understand all languages (not gibberish). But without interpretation, no one else in the church can understand the foreign language spoken, so don't speak it. This was a rebuke to the Corinthians. Remember it is not gibberish, they were actual languages that they could understand that were previously unknown to them. They were a gift--the gift of languages. If this gift were operative today, then missionaries would not have to go to language school.

No, you took a verse out of context and misinterpreted it. You do that a lot. When you string a bunch of syllables together at random it is not a language; it is gibberish that no one, not even God, can understand. The Mormons and Hindus do the same thing. So what makes you think it is of God?
It is not called the most Holy Faith any where in the Bible. Where do you get that from?

Here is what the Bible says:
Prove all things.
Test the spirits to see if they are of God.
Yes, I can give you a testimony to demonstrate that I am a Christian, but you cannot give any evidence that the gibberish you speak is of God. The evidence you need is:
What is the language you speak in, and how do you know?
What are you saying when you speak in tongues and how do you know?
Have you ever spoken in any of these languages before?

The Bible tells us:
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Speaking in tongues avails you nothing.
Communication with God must have understanding. Gibberish has no understanding and is not prayer at all. You call it "in the spirit." What "spirit"? You trust the Holy Spirit, even though you don't know what you are saying. God doesn't work that way, and never has. He is not the author of confusion.

We have gone over this so many times...and we will get no where discussing it again! You have a problem believing in your spirit what is there..therefore you will never see or understand in your mind!

God works in His ways...not ours! His ways are way above our ways and understanding most of the time.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Two things: 1. The Bible does not teach a private prayer language. 2. When you see a TV preacher or anyone else blurt out a string of gibberish, that is NOT the gift of tongues. It is not even done according to scripture. It is done to glorify and exalt the preacher and draw attention to him. If people would just use a grain of discernment, they would know these things. But these preachers are counting on the people just shouting Amen and nodding in agreement and being good and mindless sheeple, sowing their seed faith gift -- into the pockets of the charlatans.

Everyone should bombard these ministries with requests that they sow their seed faith gift into the lives of their viewers! I'm sure everyone would like a Cadillac as much as Mike Murdock does.

 

[awaken]

Two things: 1. The Bible does not teach a private prayer language. 2. When you see a TV preacher or anyone else blurt out a string of gibberish, that is NOT the gift of tongues. It is not even done according to scripture. It is done to glorify and exalt the preacher and draw attention to him. If people would just use a grain of discernment, they would know these things. But these preachers are counting on the people just shouting Amen and nodding in agreement and being good and mindless sheeple, sowing their seed faith gift -- into the pockets of the charlatans.

Everyone should bombard these ministries with requests that they sow their seed faith gift into the lives of their viewers! I'm sure everyone would like a Cadillac as much as Mike Murdock does.

I agree as far as tongues spoken in an assembly without interpretation is of no use! The Bible teaches that...but it also teaches tongues as "praying in the spirit"...

 

[evangelist-7]

I agree as far as tongues spoken in an assembly without interpretation is of no use!
The Bible teaches that...but it also teaches tongues as "praying in the spirit"...

Wasn't this the 11th commandment of the Lord? ...
Thou shalt not teach thy brethren who knowest everything, lest he be upset with thou.
.

 

[awaken]

Wasn't this the 11th commandment of the Lord? ...
Thou shalt not teach thy brethren who knowest everything, lest he be upset with thou.
.

:laugh: Well I thought I had it figured out one time too! I would have been fine in my wrong theology if I could have marked out some scriptures out of the Bible!
1 Cor. 14 is plain in that speaking in tongues is speaking to God...my spirit prayeth..etc.

 

[evangelist-7]

:laugh: Well I thought I had it figured out one time too!
I would have been fine in my wrong theology if I could have marked out some scriptures out of the Bible!
1 Cor. 14 is plain in that speaking in tongues is speaking to God...my spirit prayeth..etc.

Yeahbut ...

Your "some Scriptures" could possibly be interpreted incorrectly
(at times, I enjoy playin' the Devil's advocate).

I find that personal experience which CONFIRMS the word is exciting! ... But even better ...

The word + personal experience + other trusted peoples' real confirmations = solid truth you can bank on

E.G. The word says go into all the world and evangelize!
God actually calls YOU to go overseas and evangelize!
Several trusted people confirm your call (through prayer)!
Hey! ... Go forth! ... And just watch God do His thing!
Unbelievable!
.

 

[awaken]

Yeahbut ...

Your "some Scriptures" could possibly be interpreted incorrectly
(at times, I enjoy playin' the Devil's advocate).

I find that personal experience which CONFIRMS the word is exciting! ... But even better ...

The word + personal experience + other trusted peoples' real confirmations = solid truth you can bank on

E.G. The word says go into all the world and evangelize!
God actually calls YOU to go overseas and evangelize!
Several trusted people confirm your call (through prayer)!
Hey! ... Go forth! ... And just watch God do His thing!
Unbelievable!
.

I do not disagree with that!

 

[steaver]

I have enjoyed reading everyone of your post! Even if I do not agree with some of what you say. Because I sense a loving, genuine spirit in every post! Your desire and openness to learn and teach without a critical or judgemental spirit.

Thank you for the kind words! It is appreciated, but I know I still need plenty of work, :love2: Your post have been edifying as well. Hey, we are all in this ride together! Let's not devour our own!

 

[awaken]

Thank you for the kind words! It is appreciated, but I know I still need plenty of work, :love2: Your post have been edifying as well. Hey, we are all in this ride together! Let's not devour our own!

Good point!

 

[steaver]

This thread is about to be closed, so let's remember Paul's final thoughts on this subject of gifts.....

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."

"And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."

"Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,"

"Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; "