is the Holy Spirit Involved in the "Modern Charasmatic' Movemnent at all?

[Thomas Helwys]

We have shown scripture that Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism are two distinct events. Acts 19....Matt 3...etc.

Lets look at the results of being Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

In the bible Jesus demonstrates the power of the Holy Spirit with many miracles and authoritative preaching. It's what drew people to Him. Jesus and His ministry are the mark.

Without the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, a ministry will strive and reach for anything they find to bring in new converts and keep the sheep entertained.

Jesus used no worldly methods to entice the senses then, and He does not use worldly fables now.

Let's look at Thomas Helwys Baptist Church and see the Holy Spirit in action.



http://www.thomashelwysnottingham.org.uk/?page_id=83


Well, I think we need to investigate the origins of Jack and the Beanstock and see if this is light or darkness.

There is a harp that plays by itself, and magic beans, a goose that lays golden eggs, and a beanstalk that reaches to the heavens. The main character steals some gold coins and then kills a giant.

Interesting.

I've read the entire fable, and yet it makes no mention of Jesus Christ, or relying on Him. The savior of the story is a boy who steals and kills, and relies on magic, and lives happily ever after.

Is this a better story to tell children than the story of Jesus?

I wonder why a church that claims they have the Holy Spirit, would rely on something that does not exist, and has nothing to do with Jesus Christ?

Must be a Baptist thing.

Slander is one thing, but if you are using slander to associate me with this, then you are indeed a lowlife.

That's what people do when they have no defensible ground on which to stand.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Slander is one thing, but if you are using slander to associate me with this, then you are indeed a lowlife.

That's what people do when they have no defensible ground on which to stand.

Your profile and name states Thomas Helwys Baptist Church. If you are another Thomas Helwys (c. 1575 – c. 1616) or are referring to another Thomas Helwys Baptist Church, my mistake. Either way, it is a founding Baptist church, and if not affiliated, you might want to change your handle good buddy.

 

[awaken]

This is what I said: "This was a unique and exceptional circumstance: The Gospel first being preached and accepted by non-Jews. To confirm that the Gospel was indeed for all, the giving of the HS was delayed until the apostles could go and be personal witnesses that the Samaritans had indeed received and accepted the Gospel."

WHere did you come up with that conclusion?

 

[awaken]

Can't you understand anything?! This was a first instance of the Gospel being received by non-Jews, a unique event. The gift of the Spirit was delayed until Peter and John could personally witness to the fact that the Gospel was for everyone, not just Jews. Don't you recall the example of Cornelius and what God did with Peter?

The Gospel began within Judaism; it was first preached only to the Jews.

Read your Bible, for Christ's sake!!!

These few instances of the HS being delayed were unique, one-time, exceptional circumstances and events at the beginning of the Christian movement, not something to base an entire doctrine, practice, and even denominations on!

You keep leaving out to the uttermost parts of the world...to all that is called by God!

 

[evangelist-7]

Must be a Baptist thing.

Oooooooh, now wait just a minute here!

Smith was a Baptist ... until ... well, let's not get into that again!

Oh, yes, Smith said ...
"Unless you have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, you are in a weak and impoverished condition (spiritually)."

Not bad English for an ex-British plumber, Cockney I believe!

Most probably the greatest healing evangelist worldwide since the apostles, wuz he!
.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Oooooooh, now wait just a minute here!

Smith was a Baptist ... until ... well, let's not get into that again!

Oh, yes, Smith said ...
"Unless you have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, you are in a weak and impoverished condition."

Not bad English for an ex-British plumber, Cockney I believe!

Most probably the greatest healing evangelist worldwide since the apostles, wuz he!
.

Lol! Excuse my reference. I said that in reference to the gentleman putting his view of Baptist doctrine above scriptures that he has chosen to ignore.

 

[plain_n_simple]

The bottom line is this:

"Unless you have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, you are in a weak and impoverished condition."

This can be proven by observing a ministries methods of gaining and maintaining membership.

Many have embraced "Christian Marketing" and "Christian Demographics" to dial in on "targets" as if they were a modern ad agency peddling soap.

The truth is, without the Holy Spirit working with and confirming the word with signs and wonders, a ministry will become dormant and then will embrace anything to grow. This is not the example Jesus gave. His ministry did not need movie night, bake sales, concerts, or anything else the world had to offer.

 

[steaver]

Okay, IMO, these maybes are not nearly strong enough to be in the class of the 9 spiritual power gifts.
These gifts are great powerful spiritual anointings, only available to those with the special Spirit-baptism.

E.G. The gift of super-faith in 1 Cor 12 makes it a piece of cake to actually overcome all conceivable obstacles,
problems, persecutions, etc. while going way down in the lowest valleys and way up on the highest mountain tops,
and walk up to absolutely anyone in the world and present the gospel with incredible boldness.
This obviously has nothing to do with God's gift of grace-faith-salvation (Eph 2:8-9, 1 Cor 1:17-25, etc.).

So, please continue on with the Matthew 7:7-11, and don't forget the persistent widow.
I have absolutely NO doubt that our Lord Jesus will grant your wish!
.

Well, see, this is where you guys always lose me. "super-faith" ? It seems you have to put forth a personal judgment as to whether or not one's faith is "super" enough to qualify as a "power" gift.

I've seen evangelist with this boldness you speak of who do not believe as you do about a seperate HS baptism. Do they have this extra HS baptism yet do not know it or understand they have had it?

Trying to learn here........

 

[steaver]

The bottom line is this:

"Unless you have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, you are in a weak and impoverished condition."

This can be proven by observing a ministries methods of gaining and maintaining membership.

Many have embraced "Christian Marketing" and "Christian Demographics" to dial in on "targets" as if they were a modern ad agency peddling soap.

The truth is, without the Holy Spirit working with and confirming the word with signs and wonders, a ministry will become dormant and then will embrace anything to grow. This is not the example Jesus gave. His ministry did not need movie night, bake sales, concerts, or anything else the world had to offer.

I don't think it is an either this or that. The Holy Spirit works in many ways, you don't like it when others tell you the HS could not work with signs and wonders, so I don't think you should say the HS will not work in bake sales or concerts. You then end up putting the HS in a box just as your opponants of your view do with the HS saying He could not work like you have seen Him work. Right?

We have an UPWARD basketball program that runs every winter at our church. Children and adults are being saved through the preaching of the Word in this program. The HS is at work wherever the Word is preached. Let us not decide where and when the HS does His saving work through Jesus Christ.

I want to see the HS work more and more, but we cannot bring Him on, can we? This is a funny story, well sort of, but a friend of mine's church voted in a new pastor, they new he had a Pentacostal backround, and they questioned him about this, they heard some wild stories and they didn't want any snake handling or anything like that, he laughed and assured them he was very well grounded in what was biblical and what was a bit crazy. Well, for the first 6 months or so this pastor was very "normal", preaching good solid bible and all. But slowly he began to get a bit more "agressive" so to speak. He began getting louder and eventually began shouting out his sermons. The congregation began getting a bit concerned and asked the Elders what was going on. the Elders had a talk with the pastor, asked him why all the shouting lately? He said this is how he brought the Holy Spirit down upon the congregation. Well, in the end, they didn't renew his pastorialship, they let him go.

 

[evangelist-7]

The truth is, without the Holy Spirit working with and confirming the word with signs and wonders, a ministry will become dormant and then will embrace anything to grow. This is not the example Jesus gave. His ministry did not need movie night, bake sales, concerts, or anything else the world had to offer.

My wife and I attended an AOG for 5 years, where she gave several long prophecies
to our specific church (which Jesus gave to her whilst we drove 1/2 hour to church).

One Saturday night, the pastor arranged for motorcycles to roar down the aisle
(and a bunch of other stuff) to entertain the kiddos, i.e. teens!
Don't know exactly ... we weren't there.
.

 

[evangelist-7]

Well, see, this is where you guys always lose me. "super-faith" ?

Yes, the common garden-variety faith is that of a little mustard seed
... just enough to believe in the "foolish" gospel and become born-again!
I have already explained how different is the gift of faith in 1 Cor 12.

IMO, this is exactly why Jesus accompanies this baptism with at least a few words in an unknown tongue.
'Tis confirmation to the church that the person has been anointed with this spiritually-powerful baptism.
So, there should be no wondering about it at all.

Then, in NT times, the apostle and prophet would know for sure ...
okay, boys and girls, this person in NOW QUALIFIED to be a REAL evangelist, pastor, teacher.

Oh, how different the churches have been since man changed the BIG organized powerful churches
from Spirit-controlled churches into man-controlled churches!

Yup, daRR ... da Red (below) Reigns!
.

 

[plain_n_simple]

I don't think it is an either this or that. The Holy Spirit works in many ways, you don't like it when others tell you the HS could not work with signs and wonders, so I don't think you should say the HS will not work in bake sales or concerts. You then end up putting the HS in a box just as your opponants of your view do with the HS saying He could not work like you have seen Him work. Right?

We have an UPWARD basketball program that runs every winter at our church. Children and adults are being saved through the preaching of the Word in this program. The HS is at work wherever the Word is preached. Let us not decide where and when the HS does His saving work through Jesus Christ.

The box I put the Holy Spirit in is the examples we have in the bible. Of course it is a great thing your church is getting some saved by this or that. But the working of the Spirit has tell-tale signs that cannot be attributed to anything else. Jesus walked in the supernatural, we should too. Otherwise we are limited to mere talking someone into the kingdom, when we have big guns at our disposal, if we can believe. PS: After my Baptism in the Spirit, everything else is just plain weak.

 

[evangelist-7]

Well, for the first 6 months or so this pastor was very "normal", preaching good solid bible and all. But slowly he began to get a bit more "agressive" so to speak. He began getting louder and eventually began shouting out his sermons. The congregation began getting a bit concerned and asked the Elders what was going on. the Elders had a talk with the pastor, asked him why all the shouting lately? He said this is how he brought the Holy Spirit down upon the congregation. Well, in the end, they didn't renew his pastorialship, they let him go.

Well, he obviously wasn't following the Spirit, was he?
You don't think there are many pastors in other denominations who don't follow the Spirit?
Wonder what the percentage is?
.

 

[steaver]

Yes, the common garden-variety faith is that of a little mustard seed
... just enough to believe in the "foolish" gospel and become born-again!
I have already explained how different is the gift of faith in 1 Cor 12.

IMO, this is exactly why Jesus accompanies this baptism with at least a few words in an unknown tongue.
'Tis confirmation to the church that the person has been anointed with this spiritually-powerful baptism.
So, there should be no wondering about it at all.

Then, in NT times, the apostle and prophet would know for sure ...
okay, boys and girls, this person in NOW QUALIFIED to be a REAL evangelist, pastor, teacher.

Oh, how different the churches have been since man changed the BIG organized powerful churches
from Spirit-controlled churches into man-controlled churches!

Yup, daRR ... da Red (below) Reigns!
.

But I believe Jesus said if you have faith as small as a mustard seed you could move a mountain. So I wouldn't say this is "little" faith.

Of course though, if someone utters a few words in an unknown tongue there would have to be an interpreter, otherwise, anyone could jibber jabber and you would erroniously assume they received this baptism. You could be deceived. I believe you said you uttered a few words, did your pastor say what they were to confirm your baptism?

 

[steaver]

Well, he obviously wasn't following the Spirit, was he?

.

I would say not, but isn't men like this who give you guys a bad name?

You don't think there are many pastors in other denominations who don't follow the Spirit?
Wonder what the percentage is?

and it is men like this who give the non-pentacostal churches a bad name.

You see, there is a problem with the rhetoric that comes out of both camps on this issue. The extreme, or unbiblical displays, in both camps, end up defining one camp towards the other.

You end up declaring all non-pentacostal churches dead, the Spirit has left the building, and the non-pentacostal churches end up calling the pentacostals demonic.

Aren't we all on the same team?

 

[steaver]

The box I put the Holy Spirit in is the examples we have in the bible.

I have personally witnessed the Holy Spirit envading a worship service. People were broken, coming to the alter to bow down as submission before God and prayer. So much so that the entire service became a prayer service, the pastor recognized immediately what was happening and he never preached that morning. The service continued into the afternoon. This is just one example I have seen. There was no miracles, no tongues, no prophecies spoken, only confession and worship. Would you include this in your box? This church is not pentacostal.

Of course it is a great thing your church is getting some saved by this or that.

And your church also does this and that to help the lost come and hear the gospel, right? You probably hold services and even special services throughout the year. Maybe do some mens meetings, fellowship meals, ladies groups, etc.

But the working of the Spirit has tell-tale signs that cannot be attributed to anything else. Jesus walked in the supernatural, we should too.

I've seen the Spirit work, and without any of these "signs" spoken of in the book of Acts.

Otherwise we are limited to mere talking someone into the kingdom, when we have big guns at our disposal, if we can believe. PS: After my Baptism in the Spirit, everything else is just plain weak

Well, nobody has the power to "talk someone into the kingdom". Only God saves. You probably already know this, but most people are saved apart from any signs manifested by the Holy Spirit. Some are saved in that setting, certainly, but most simply hear the gospel preached by a regular ole Christian and God gives the increase.

Hey, I am not here to slam you down for what you have going on in your life with the Holy SPirit's power and blessing. Godspeed to you! I am here probing for answers and I don't like to hear the extremes coming from either side of the issue. The Holy SPirit is at work in pentacostal churches AND the Holy SPirit is at work in the non-pentacostal churches AND yes, He is probably hindered in many of both because of either one's extreme povs that they get entrenched in.

 

[steaver]

You know, i have listened to this issue and the debates on it over the years, and I have been leaning towards this;

I believe (and I am not by any means totally all in on this) what we are calling the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which appears to come either at conversion or some later date, is the administration of gifts by the Holy Spirit.

When a person gets "saved" they receive of course the Holy Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, Father God. What we see as a baptism of the Holy Spirit could be viewed as the administration of gifts, which the Spirit may give at conversion and at a later date.

We are told to ask for gifts, correct? This tells us we can obtain gifts AFTER conversion. Let's say you are given the gift of healings, what would this look like? Wouldn't others see how the Holy Spirit is with you? Couldn't you say "I have been baptised by the Holy Spirit, given the gift of healings" ? Isn't this even what Pentacostles would say?

But then time goes by, and this same person has been coveting earnestly the gift of tongues, and bamm! The Holy Spirit comes upon them and the gift is manifest! Would this person say they have been baptised by the Holy Spirit a second time? And coudn't there be a third time and a forth?

I am beginning to see this baptism of the Holy Spirit, not as a one time event that should be sought after and somehow you feel like you have "made it" with God when you receive a gift.

Isn't preaching and teaching a result of the baptism of the Holy Ghost? How about the gift of servant? The humble christian who gets no recognition, but faithfully serves behind the scenes? No great "power" gift, or is it?

It appears there are many diverse gifts given from the very point of conversion. And also gifts given after conversion. Some of these gifts are very "powerful" to the public eye, some not so much.

Does God call all Christians to have the so called "power" gifts? I think not, I know not. But it does appear to me that every Christian has been baptised with the Holy Spirit at conversion and given gifts for the edifying of the kingdom. AND, the Holy Spirit gives additional baptisms, calling some Christians to service in differing areas at differing times. Giving some gifts, such a miracles, to convince say a pagan crowd in some foreign land that the preacher is accompanied by God! Or even Christian man is called and baptised by the Holy Spirit to become a pastor later in life. We cannot view all of this from our little world here in north america, God is doing things like was done in the book of Acts in other places in the world going into all the ends of the earth. Talk to some missionaries sometime.

So I think we might be wrong to view the baptism of the Holy Spirit as only a one time event in a Christian's life. As an event that only happens either at conversion or afterwards and can only happen once. I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I think we are getting it all twisted around into something it is not.

Alright, thoughts have been emptied out, Godspeed!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Your profile and name states Thomas Helwys Baptist Church. If you are another Thomas Helwys (c. 1575 – c. 1616) or are referring to another Thomas Helwys Baptist Church, my mistake. Either way, it is a founding Baptist church, and if not affiliated, you might want to change your handle good buddy.

No need to change my username. Thomas Helwys is one of my heroes; that's why I chose the username.

You think there is only one Thomas Helwys Baptist Church in the whole world? Ours is so small and isolated you'd never find it on the internet.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Lol! Excuse my reference. I said that in reference to the gentleman putting his view of Baptist doctrine above scriptures that he has chosen to ignore.

I have thoroughly referenced and explained the relevant scriptures several times, in response to your post and Awaken's, as well. So, it is not I who is doing the ignoring.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

You know, i have listened to this issue and the debates on it over the years, and I have been leaning towards this;

I believe (and I am not by any means totally all in on this) what we are calling the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which appears to come either at conversion or some later date, is the administration of gifts by the Holy Spirit.

When a person gets "saved" they receive of course the Holy Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, Father God. What we see as a baptism of the Holy Spirit could be viewed as the administration of gifts, which the Spirit may give at conversion and at a later date.

We are told to ask for gifts, correct? This tells us we can obtain gifts AFTER conversion. Let's say you are given the gift of healings, what would this look like? Wouldn't others see how the Holy Spirit is with you? Couldn't you say "I have been baptised by the Holy Spirit, given the gift of healings" ? Isn't this even what Pentacostles would say?

But then time goes by, and this same person has been coveting earnestly the gift of tongues, and bamm! The Holy Spirit comes upon them and the gift is manifest! Would this person say they have been baptised by the Holy Spirit a second time? And coudn't there be a third time and a forth?

I am beginning to see this baptism of the Holy Spirit, not as a one time event that should be sought after and somehow you feel like you have "made it" with God when you receive a gift.

Isn't preaching and teaching a result of the baptism of the Holy Ghost? How about the gift of servant? The humble christian who gets no recognition, but faithfully serves behind the scenes? No great "power" gift, or is it?

It appears there are many diverse gifts given from the very point of conversion. And also gifts given after conversion. Some of these gifts are very "powerful" to the public eye, some not so much.

Does God call all Christians to have the so called "power" gifts? I think not, I know not. But it does appear to me that every Christian has been baptised with the Holy Spirit at conversion and given gifts for the edifying of the kingdom. AND, the Holy Spirit gives additional baptisms, calling some Christians to service in differing areas at differing times. Giving some gifts, such a miracles, to convince say a pagan crowd in some foreign land that the preacher is accompanied by God! Or even Christian man is called and baptised by the Holy Spirit to become a pastor later in life. We cannot view all of this from our little world here in north america, God is doing things like was done in the book of Acts in other places in the world going into all the ends of the earth. Talk to some missionaries sometime.

So I think we might be wrong to view the baptism of the Holy Spirit as only a one time event in a Christian's life. As an event that only happens either at conversion or afterwards and can only happen once. I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I think we are getting it all twisted around into something it is not.

Alright, thoughts have been emptied out, Godspeed!

I think what you have written is much closer to the truth than most of the stuff that has been said here. Good post!