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is the Holy Spirit Involved in the "Modern Charasmatic' Movemnent at all?

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evangelist-7

New Member
THe Baptism in the Holy Spirit was promised in the OT...
John last prophecy was the promise of the baptism (Luke 3:16)
Jesus told His group of disciples to wait for “the Promise” of the Father:

”Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of
Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” (Luke 24:49)


Next up was Jesus expanding on His instructions above:

“… wait for the Promise of the Father …
… you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
… you shall receive (spiritual) power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
and you shall be witnesses to Me … to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:4-8)


Note: "the Promise" should not have been capitalized by the translators!
Because the promise and the gift (in the NT) were this baptism, not the Holy Spirit.

Now, this Day of Pentecost was a FIRST and most memorable event.
This whole event was designed to blow everyone's socks (er, sandals) off.
I do not doubt that the 120 were simultaneously born-again when receiving this baptism.

This FIRST event JUMP-STARTED God's church ...
with salvations, HS baptisms, blowing people's sandals off, etc.

But, not too many years later ... Satan and man joined forces ...
to destroy the glorious Spirit-led church, and turn it into the disastrous man-led church!
Hello!

.
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>

I do not doubt that the 120 were simultaneously born-again when receiving this baptism.
.
Your belief, then, is that Mary (the mother of Jesus), Peter, and John, etc. were not saved (born again) at the time of Pentecost?
Jesus was born from an unsaved virgin? Now that's a new and harsh view? Were the Pharisees right when they said to Jesus: "We are not the one born of fornication," implying that he was? That seems to be your view here.
 

plain_n_simple

Active Member
Lol so true evangelist-7!

Referring back to the book of Acts, you have already shown that there were two distinct baptisms.

Acts 10:
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Then in 19:

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.


God made sure we could read this two ways,
Baptized in the Spirit, get water baptized too.
Baptized in water, get Spirit baptized too.

When water baptized, of course we receive a measure of the Holy Spirit, he is part of the Trinity which lives inside us. Notice that when others were water baptized, the scripture does not tell us they were water baptized with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Jesus made the distinction between a repentance baptism and a fire baptism. Get both!
 
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Thomas Helwys

New Member
Lol so true evangelist-7!

Referring back to the book of Acts, you have already shown that there were two distinct baptisms.

Acts 10:
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Then in 19:

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.


God made sure we could read this two ways,
Baptized in the Spirit, get water baptized too.
Baptized in water, get Spirit baptized too.

When water baptized, of course we receive a measure of the Holy Spirit, he is part of the Trinity which lives inside us. Notice that when others were water baptized, the scripture does not tell us they were water baptized with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Jesus made the distinction between a repentance baptism and a fire baptism. Get both!

There is so much confusion and error in this post that I don't know where to begin. There is nothing in scripture to support that one gets the HS when water baptized, neither fully or a measure of the HS.

The times in scripture that the HS was not given simultaneously with belief were special circumstances: at Pentecost, because the gift of the HS was not given until then, and the two places you mentioned: with the Gentiles, the gift of HS was delayed until Peter and the Jews could witness firsthand that the Gospel was also for the Gentiles; the second instance, these were John's disciples, not disciples of Jesus, and had only received John's baptism.

The fatal error of Pentecostals and Charismatics is that they want to take these special one-time circumstances that never occurred again and make them normative for every Christian in every age!! This is simply NOT the case! Every believer after Pentecost and after the Gospel was given to the Gentiles is baptized by the HS upon first coming to faith in Christ. The fruits of the Spirit are evidence of this HS baptism, not some spiritual gift and especially not tongues which is a distortion of the scriptures.

Pentecostalism is harmful. It makes two classes of Christians and promotes spiritual arrogance. It makes people seek something which they already have, but if they don't get this supposed baptism with the supposed evidence of tongues, they are not fully accepted into the tribe.

People reading this had better be aware of something else: fruits of the spirit cannot be counterfeited; tongues can and are.

Pentecostalism is based on a false interpretation of scripture with harmful results.

I believe all the gifts are available today, but NONE of them are given based on a supposed HS baptism that has to be sought after conversion. God gives them according to His will to every believer, just as he baptizes every believer in the HS at the time when they come to faith in Christ.
 

evangelist-7

New Member
Your belief, then, is that Mary (the mother of Jesus), Peter, and John, etc. were not saved (born again)
at the time of Pentecost?
Jesus was born from an unsaved virgin? Now that's a new and harsh view? Were the Pharisees right when they
said to Jesus: "We are not the one born of fornication," implying that he was? That seems to be your view here.
Yes, how can anyone be saved without the Holy Spirit?
Please don't tell me that Baptists believe Mary was born-again ... I just don't know if I could handle it.
Your own personal opinion, okay ... but not all Baptists!

John 20:22 is the only other place where Christians say Scripture possibly says the 11 were saved.
I thought maybe the 11 were born-again @ John 20:22, but others have talked me out of it.

P.S. Your red means before that Day?

.
 

evangelist-7

New Member
There is nothing in scripture to support that one gets the HS when water baptized, neither fully or a measure of the HS.
I agree with this ... water baptism has absolutely nothing to do with the Holy Spirit coming IN or UPON ...
although the baptism with the Holy Spirit COULD occur during water baptism, and probably did on an occasion or two.

Did anyone ever get water baptized before accepting Jesus as Lord and savior?

.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Yes, how can anyone be saved without the Holy Spirit?
Please don't tell me that Baptists believe Mary was born-again ... I just don't know if I could handle it.
Your own personal opinion, okay ... but not all Baptists!

John 20:22 is the only other place where Christians say Scripture possibly says the 11 were saved.
I thought maybe the 11 were born-again @ John 20:22, but others have talked me out of it.

P.S. Your red means before that Day?

.
We are saved by faith. Your restrictions excludes all OT believers including everyone listed in Hebrews 11 whom the writer indicates were all saved.
I posted yesterday concerning Abraham and David:
We are saved by faith.
For example, How was Abraham saved?
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

How was David saved?
Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
--We are all saved the same way--belief in God.
It is the Lord that says these men were saved.
Take your argument up with him.
 

evangelist-7

New Member
We are saved by faith.
Your restrictions excludes all OT believers including everyone listed in Hebrews 11
whom the writer indicates were all saved.
I posted yesterday concerning Abraham and David: ...
It is the Lord that says these men were saved.
Yes, the OT saints are a mystery to me.
God could proclaim them saved without them ever receiving the Holy Spirit.

In the OT, God's Spirit usually came UPON His prophets (but occasionally INSIDE).
Never any mention of either one happening to the masses of Israelites.

To me, it was a totally different covenant, now obsolete.

.
 

evangelist-7

New Member

Further to post #202 ... concerning "the really big shew" on the Day of Pentecost:

That this truly was a SUPER-SPECTACULAR ONE-TIME EVENT is attested to by the fact that
it was accompanied by a mighty rushing wind and tongues of fire resting on all 120.

This fact dismisses any idea that this was any kind of model or pattern for the future,
which some unbelievers in the Spirit baptism insist should be the case.

.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Just so there is no confusion, unreal expectations, etc. by anyone concerning tongues ...

IMO, most Pentecostals/Charismatics believe that tongues is the evidence/confirmation of receiving this baptism.
I spoke just a few words in tongues during my moment.

However, many do NOT continue with the tongues thereafter.
It is merely 1 of the 9 spiritual power gifts (1 Cor 12) ... and it is a very powerful gift!
E.G. I have several of these 9, but NOT the gift of tongues.
.

I'm seeking understanding here, so please don't take this as trying to poke holes in your beliefs. I have a few questions;

What do you mean by "your moment"? How did this come about? Did it just happen, did you do anything to bring it on, did you just simply ask God in your secret closet of prayer? Does it have to happen in a worship service?

I ask these questions because I have asked God many times that if i am missing out on this baptism of the Holy Spirit I sure don't want to.

Now, I believe that I also have a few of these 9 gifts listed there in 1Cor12, so does this mean that I already have this baptism? It seems that those who claim there is this seperate baptism have a "moment" as you call it. I never had any such moment that i recall other than the moment God called me to teach His word.
 

evangelist-7

New Member

Steaver,

You just don't know how much I admire your hunger for more of the Lord.
IMO, Jesus can give this baptism to a person any time, anywhere, etc.
Would you care to tell me which of the 9 gifts you have (here or PM me)?

I have posted my "moment" here before, but here it is again:

A few months after my first trip to evangelize the Bulgarian villages, I received the baptism with the Holy Spirit
(which has nothing to do with being born again). There were 15 of us attending a Sunday night church service.
I was standing at the front, facing 6 people who were on the stage: my pastor and his wife, a visiting evangelist
and his wife, my wife, and the piano player. We were all praying for me to receive this baptism.
After a few minutes, I heard an angelic choir singing loudly (with instruments). Later, my pastor said he heard
me speak a few words in tongues, and I kept saying, “They all had microphones!” (because of the loud singing).
All on the stage also heard the angelic choir, as did 2 in the audience, for a total of 9 out of the 15 in attendance.
We heard it “in the spirit” because the angelic choir and instruments were NOT on the tape recording of the meeting.

.
 

awaken

Active Member
This is perhaps a misunderstanding.
JESUS is the Baptizer with the Holy Spirit.
ONLY He gives it, but I'm not positive WHO decides who shall receive it.
IMO, this is Jesus also ... it is His playpen down here, no one else's.

.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal...But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit dividing to every man severally as he will.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Steaver,

You just don't know how much I admire your hunger for more of the Lord.
IMO, Jesus can give this baptism to a person any time, anywhere, etc.
Would you care to tell me which of the 9 gifts you have (here or PM me)?

I have posted my "moment" here before, but here it is again:

A few months after my first trip to evangelize the Bulgarian villages, I received the baptism with the Holy Spirit
(which has nothing to do with being born again). There were 15 of us attending a Sunday night church service.
I was standing at the front, facing 6 people who were on the stage: my pastor and his wife, a visiting evangelist
and his wife, my wife, and the piano player. We were all praying for me to receive this baptism.
After a few minutes, I heard an angelic choir singing loudly (with instruments). Later, my pastor said he heard
me speak a few words in tongues, and I kept saying, “They all had microphones!” (because of the loud singing).
All on the stage also heard the angelic choir, as did 2 in the audience, for a total of 9 out of the 15 in attendance.
We heard it “in the spirit” because the angelic choir and instruments were NOT on the tape recording of the meeting.
.

As far as I understand these gifts which are listed I would say the gift of faith. Nothing that happens in my life causes me to panic or flip out, and believe me, plenty has happened which would cause alot of Christians to doubt God. I've witnessed such. My wife even gets upset with me because it seems that I don't care when terrible things happen. I care very much, but my faith in Christ gives me a consistent peace.

The other one may be the discerning of spirits. I'm not sure if this is so much a gift given to me or if by my intensive study of the scriptures over the past fifteen years allows me to see the false spirit in false religions and/or essential doctrines which would oppose the Faith once delivered unto the saints.
 

awaken

Active Member
People reading this had better be aware of something else: fruits of the spirit cannot be counterfeited; tongues can and are.
Are you saying people can not fake Love, Joy, Peace etc.? I have seen many people pretend to be joyous but it was a coverup of unhappiness..I have seen people pretend to love with all the outward signs of it being true, but it was far from it. People can not counterfeit something that is not real to start with..think about that!

I believe all the gifts are available today, but NONE of them are given based on a supposed HS baptism that has to be sought after conversion. God gives them according to His will to every believer, just as he baptizes every believer in the HS at the time when they come to faith in Christ.
Too many scriptures disprove this! It is seperate...but can be all at once.

Again..
Jesus was baptized in water, the Holy Spirit descended on Him. Was this done to seal Jesus with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of His salvation (as in Ephesians 1:13-14)? Obviously not!

"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (Luke 11:11-13)

The key to understanding this passage is that Jesus gives examples of a son asking his father for a gift, and then He says that "your Father" will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask. In other words, if you are a Christian, a child of God, then you can ask your Father for the Holy Spirit. First you must be saved (at which point God becomes your heavenly Father - see John 1:12-13, Galatians 3:26, and 4:4-7), then you can ask for the Holy Spirit. But remember, when we become saved we automatically receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, we don't have to ask for Him! Yet Jesus says that God will give the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who ask for it. This gift, therefore, is not salvation!

Since only Christians have been adopted as children of God (Ephesians 1:4-5), only Christians can ask our heavenly Father for the gift of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This demonstrates that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is only available to us after salvation.


In Hebrews 6:1-2 it is more likely that new Christians received instructions about the two baptisms which they had not yet received. This would indicate that just like water baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is only available to us after salvation.

Remember, Paul taught that we are automatically sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe. Yet in Acts 19:1-6, Paul asked these disciples if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed. He wasn't asking if they had been sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit at salvation because it was Paul himself who taught that everyone is automatically sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe. Paul was asking these disciples something else.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate event from salvation, and that its purpose is to empower a person who is already saved.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is only available to us after we have received salvation. THis could happen at the same time, yet separate..one is within and one is upon.
 

Thomas Helwys

New Member
Are you saying people can not fake Love, Joy, Peace etc.? I have seen many people pretend to be joyous but it was a coverup of unhappiness..I have seen people pretend to love with all the outward signs of it being true, but it was far from it. People can not counterfeit something that is not real to start with..think about that!


Too many scriptures disprove this! It is seperate...but can be all at once.

Again..
Jesus was baptized in water, the Holy Spirit descended on Him. Was this done to seal Jesus with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of His salvation (as in Ephesians 1:13-14)? Obviously not!

"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (Luke 11:11-13)

The key to understanding this passage is that Jesus gives examples of a son asking his father for a gift, and then He says that "your Father" will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask. In other words, if you are a Christian, a child of God, then you can ask your Father for the Holy Spirit. First you must be saved (at which point God becomes your heavenly Father - see John 1:12-13, Galatians 3:26, and 4:4-7), then you can ask for the Holy Spirit. But remember, when we become saved we automatically receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, we don't have to ask for Him! Yet Jesus says that God will give the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who ask for it. This gift, therefore, is not salvation!

Since only Christians have been adopted as children of God (Ephesians 1:4-5), only Christians can ask our heavenly Father for the gift of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This demonstrates that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is only available to us after salvation.


In Hebrews 6:1-2 it is more likely that new Christians received instructions about the two baptisms which they had not yet received. This would indicate that just like water baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is only available to us after salvation.

Remember, Paul taught that we are automatically sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe. Yet in Acts 19:1-6, Paul asked these disciples if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed. He wasn't asking if they had been sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit at salvation because it was Paul himself who taught that everyone is automatically sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe. Paul was asking these disciples something else.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate event from salvation, and that its purpose is to empower a person who is already saved.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is only available to us after we have received salvation. THis could happen at the same time, yet separate..one is within and one is upon.

The problem for your theology is that none of the scriptures you use support your view, which is indeed the false Pentecostal/Charismatic view and not the Baptist one, or the scriptural truth.You have said nothing to refute what I have posted.

One does not have to seek something which they've been given at conversion. There is no Christian who has not been baptized with the HS.
 
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evangelist-7

New Member
As far as I understand these gifts which are listed I would say the gift of faith.
The other one may be the discerning of spirits.
Okay, IMO, these maybes are not nearly strong enough to be in the class of the 9 spiritual power gifts.
These gifts are great powerful spiritual anointings, only available to those with the special Spirit-baptism.

E.G. The gift of super-faith in 1 Cor 12 makes it a piece of cake to actually overcome all conceivable obstacles,
problems, persecutions, etc. while going way down in the lowest valleys and way up on the highest mountain tops,
and walk up to absolutely anyone in the world and present the gospel with incredible boldness.
This obviously has nothing to do with God's gift of grace-faith-salvation (Eph 2:8-9, 1 Cor 1:17-25, etc.).

So, please continue on with the Matthew 7:7-11, and don't forget the persistent widow.
I have absolutely NO doubt that our Lord Jesus will grant your wish!

.
 

evangelist-7

New Member
JESUS is the Baptizer with the Holy Spirit. ONLY He gives it ...

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal...
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit dividing to every man severally as he will.
All I was saying was ...
JESUS is the Baptizer with the Holy Spirit.
ONLY He gives it ... Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33

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evangelist-7

New Member

Awaken, you might be able to use this in your travels ...

1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6

------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

the Promise --------Y-Y---Y-------------------------
baptism with H.S. ----Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
filled with H.S. -------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
received H.S. --------------------Y-------Y---------
speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
power --------------Y-Y-----------Y----Y------------
boldness -------------------Y-Y-----------------Y---
miracles -------------------Y---Y---Y--Y--------Y---


I believe it is obvious that all of these are directly connected.
Well, obviously to me anyway!
I just don't believe this is in the category of rocket science or brain surgery.

.
 

awaken

Active Member

Awaken, you might be able to use this in your travels ...

1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6

------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

the Promise --------Y-Y---Y-------------------------
baptism with H.S. ----Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
filled with H.S. -------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
received H.S. --------------------Y-------Y---------
speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
power --------------Y-Y-----------Y----Y------------
boldness -------------------Y-Y-----------------Y---
miracles -------------------Y---Y---Y--Y--------Y---


I believe it is obvious that all of these are directly connected.
Well, obviously to me anyway!
I just don't believe this is in the category of rocket science or brain surgery.

.
Interesting! THanks!
 
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