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is the Holy Spirit Involved in the "Modern Charasmatic' Movemnent at all?

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evangelist-7

New Member
Charismatic theology sets up two classes of believers, those who have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit and those who have, making the former second-class Christians and therefore inferior to the latter. Charismatic theology thus creates an attitude of spiritual superiority in its adherents.
Many thanks for your incredible words of wisdom.
Perchance art thouest drawing a parallel to da dos classes amongst da Israelites in da OT:
da prophets and da others?

.
 

evangelist-7

New Member
Just curious. If one has the gift of healing, why is it necessary to lay hands on a sick person?
Why is it necessary to pray for him? Why is it necessary to have somebody pray in agreement with you?
Why does one with the healing gift need to invoke the name of Jesus?
It seems to me that you're actually open to learning some truth (but I've been wrong before).

The laying on of hands is one of God's "things" in both OT and NT.
IMO, it does emphasize (to everyone) who is anointed of God with the gift of healing.

Jesus said there is more spiritual power, i.e. anointing, when 2 or 3 pray in agreement.
Also IMO, there is extra power when a husband prays for his wife and/or family.

I cannot remember if praying "in Jesus' name" is in the NT, but I believe it is.

This is similar to the incredible spiritual power of using the following
2 enormously powerful words/phrases against demons: JESUS and BLOOD of JESUS.
This info is of great value to ALL born-again Christians ... Try it, you'll like it.
Of course #1, you have to discern if a particular problem is being caused by Satan's demons.
Of course #2, you could just be a good little Baptist and simply ignore everything ...
'tis much easier and less beneficial to everyone involved.

.
 
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evangelist-7

New Member
If you want to know a good source for information on the gift of tongues,
and will be willing to learn about what Paul's teaching on them is,
then take a look at these links (of Johnnie MacArthur) ...
Since Johnnie is not Pentecostal/Charismatic ...

-- why would you think he is any kind of expert about tongues, and many etc.?

-- he has all the more reason to discount da whole entire thing as unbiblical,
the same as church leaders of 1900 years ago (and all the way up 'til now),
i.e. man prefers man-run churches to Spirit-run churches!

.
 

awaken

Active Member
Since Johnnie is not Pentecostal/Charismatic ...

-- why would you think he is any kind of expert about tongues, and many etc.?

-- he has all the more reason to discount da whole entire thing as unbiblical,
the same as church leaders of 1900 years ago (and all the way up 'til now),
i.e. man prefers man-run churches to Spirit-run churches!

.


:applause::applause: I did not look them up but I figured it was on the same line as DHK was posting! I have heard all that...I was raised with that! THe Holy Spirit has confirmed the truth in His written Word and also in my life!
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
:applause::applause: I did not look them up but I figured it was on the same line as DHK was posting! I have heard all that...I was raised with that! THe Holy Spirit has confirmed the truth in His written Word and also in my life!
So you prefer to remain in ignorance then to learn from those who have thoroughly studied the subject. That is a pity.
 

plain_n_simple

Active Member
Notice that Jesus did not send out the 120 until after they received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. This is what gives power to witness with authority, heal the sick, cast out devils. It is the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. Without the baptism of the Holy Ghost, a person has little effect. This is why churches/pastors scramble for everything they can find in the world to attract prospective new members, and very often reach "burnout". The flesh cannot do spiritual works. However, if you have not received this baptism, but have been water baptized, you are not a second class Christian in God's eyes. This Spirit baptism is to be desired, but has nothing to do with your salvation.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Since Johnnie is not Pentecostal/Charismatic ...

-- why would you think he is any kind of expert about tongues, and many etc.?

Because he has put countless hours of study into this subject, using the Word of God as his foundation. He has also interviewed dozens of Charismatic leaders, and many of those quotes can be found in his book "Charismatic Chaos." However the links that I gave are a four part commentary on 1Cor.14, and that is all. It is a commentary. He is a Bible scholar that pastors a church and teaches at a Seminary. He knows his Bible. You don't.
-- he has all the more reason to discount da whole entire thing as unbiblical,
the same as church leaders of 1900 years ago (and all the way up 'til now),
i.e. man prefers man-run churches to Spirit-run churches!
Have you been to his church? My guess is--no. Therefore you have nothing to judge by. You have made a false accusation without bothering to investigate for yourself. Slander is not the basis for debate.
The links are a commentary. They are on 1Cor.14. Your post indicates that you don't like the Bible and people who expound on it. Is that the real truth?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Paul's instructions that tongues must be interpreted only pertained to during the church meetings!

Paul's instructions concerning tongues only pertained to church meetings.
While you're instructing everybody on everything imaginable, please be so kind
as to advise the MANY millions worldwide that they must NOT speak in tongues
at any time unless someone is there who can (and will) interpret them!
1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
--The command is, if you have no interpreter, then shut up.
However, I must admit that I am not able to advise as to how you can accomplish this great and noble task.
My task is to show you and all that are involved in this nonsense that it is not of God. It was not of God in the first century and not of God now. In many cases it is of demonic origin. This is not the way God works. If you don't know what God is saying then what guarantee do you have that it is an evil spirit speaking instead? You have no guarantee. God is God of order, not of chaos.
P.S.2 ... A heads-up: Attacking God's anointed saints is unbiblical (dangerous to one's health even).
Just as false prophets in the OT were not God's anointed those so-called faith healers, and those who think they can speak in tongues and those who think that they have the gift of miracles are all frauds. They are not the anointed of God. They need to be exposed not praised.
P.S.3 ... Most born-again Christians are not anointed, they're only born-again.
When people continue in false teaching and also promote then they themselves become false teachers. Many of them are not even born-again.
A fact: Benny Hinn is not born again.
Jesus said: "By their fruit you shall know them"
I know this by the fruit of Benny Hinn (i.e. his doctrine).
 

Thomas Helwys

New Member
Notice that Jesus did not send out the 120 until after they received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. This is what gives power to witness with authority, heal the sick, cast out devils. It is the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. Without the baptism of the Holy Ghost, a person has little effect. This is why churches/pastors scramble for everything they can find in the world to attract prospective new members, and very often reach "burnout". The flesh cannot do spiritual works. However, if you have not received this baptism, but have been water baptized, you are not a second class Christian in God's eyes. This Spirit baptism is to be desired, but has nothing to do with your salvation.

To say that not all Christians have been baptized with the HS is false doctrine. Further, it does not have to be desired. It is given to every person the moment he/she believes and is born again.

What I have said about Pentecostalism making second class Christians is evident in this very thread. Just look at the spiritual arrogance on display from one in particular who has "arrived"!
 

evangelist-7

New Member
Notice that Jesus did not send out the 120 until after they received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. This is what gives power to witness with authority, heal the sick, cast out devils. It is the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. Without the baptism of the Holy Ghost, a person has little effect. This is why churches/pastors scramble for everything they can find in the world to attract prospective new members, and very often reach "burnout". The flesh cannot do spiritual works. However, if you have not received this baptism, but have been water baptized, you are not a second class Christian in God's eyes. This Spirit baptism is to be desired, but has nothing to do with your salvation.
100% correct ... 'tis quite a shock to find you here.
.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Notice that Jesus did not send out the 120 until after they received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. This is what gives power to witness with authority, heal the sick, cast out devils. It is the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. Without the baptism of the Holy Ghost, a person has little effect. This is why churches/pastors scramble for everything they can find in the world to attract prospective new members, and very often reach "burnout". The flesh cannot do spiritual works. However, if you have not received this baptism, but have been water baptized, you are not a second class Christian in God's eyes. This Spirit baptism is to be desired, but has nothing to do with your salvation.

Many times I have followed threads such as these, and I have not been willing to dismiss Pentacostals as crazy or just "working themselves up" so to speak. My fear is that I might quench the Holy Spirit and have no desire for that.

I do have a question though and maybe just plain n simple can give me an answer. You say the Spirit baptism is to be desired, well, I have aked God many times if I am missing out here on this. I've prayed many times to God and said if this Spirit baptism is something I have not been given then I most certainly want it! Let me have it Lord!

....but nothing changes.....doesn't God want me to have it?
 

evangelist-7

New Member

What we need here is a good old-fashioned Charismatic Baptists sub-forum,
so the good folks like plain_n_simple can talk to their own kind.

Problem is, I wouldn't be allowed to enter ... unless as an Honorable Guest ('cause I suggested it).

.
 

awaken

Active Member
Notice that Jesus did not send out the 120 until after they received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. This is what gives power to witness with authority, heal the sick, cast out devils. It is the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. Without the baptism of the Holy Ghost, a person has little effect. This is why churches/pastors scramble for everything they can find in the world to attract prospective new members, and very often reach "burnout". The flesh cannot do spiritual works. However, if you have not received this baptism, but have been water baptized, you are not a second class Christian in God's eyes. This Spirit baptism is to be desired, but has nothing to do with your salvation.
Notice too that Jesus did not do any miracles until the dove ascended upon Him representing the Holy Spirit...
 

awaken

Active Member
The Biblical evidence indicates that the disciples were saved on Resurrection Sunday, and that they received supernatural power when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. These were two separate and distinct events with two separate and distinct purposes.

Now let's take a look at some more reasons why salvation and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are separate events:
Notice that after Jesus was baptized in water, the Holy Spirit descended on Him. Was this done to seal Jesus with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of His salvation (as in Ephesians 1:13-14)? Obviously not, because Jesus was not in need of salvation. On earth, Jesus was our perfect role model because He was the perfect human, and He received the Holy Spirit in order to be empowered for His ministry on earth as the perfect human. This can be demonstrated by following the sequence of events in Luke's Gospel and in Acts:
"When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove." (Luke 3:21-22)

"You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached-- how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him." (Acts 10:37-38)

"Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry." (Luke 3:23)

"Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert, where for forty days he was tempted by the devil." (Luke 4:1-2)

"When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time. Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside." (Luke 4:13-14)

First we are told that Jesus was baptized in water and then He received the Holy Spirit (not as a guarantee of His salvation, but for spiritual empowerment). We are also told that God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and power. Next, Jesus began His ministry after receiving the Holy Spirit and power. We are then told that He allowed Himself to be led by the Spirit rather than deciding on His own what He wished to do. Finally, we see Jesus returning to Galilee in the power of the Holy Spirit after resisting the devil in the desert. So even though Jesus is the Son of God, the above passages tell us that He received the empowerment of the Holy Spirit for His earthly ministry. Notice that Jesus was already "saved" (because He was never "unsaved") when He received spiritual empowerment. So if we are to follow His example, don't we as we need to be saved before we can receive spiritual empowerment.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So if we are to follow His example, don't we as we need to be saved before we can receive spiritual empowerment.

So how do I get this Spirit baptism? Like I told plain n simple, I have asked God, but nothing new ever happens.
 

awaken

Active Member
So how do I get this Spirit baptism? Like I told plain n simple, I have asked God, but nothing new ever happens.
I ask for it just like I ask for salvation! By faith in what His Word says! I understood very little about the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I did not look for outward signs of either time. But I started digging in His Word after that to understand...



The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a gift of God which we can choose to receive after we become Christians (Acts 1:4-5, Luke 11:11-13) this is what happen to me anyway, and the purpose of this gift is to empower every believer for being a witness of Christ to a hurting and unbelieving world (Acts 1:4-8, Luke 24:49). The usual outward evidence that we have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not that we "feel" anything but that we are able to begin praying in tongues (but not limited to just this) by the Holy Spirit. There is overwhelming Scriptural evidence for this in His Word.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I ask for it just like I ask for salvation! By faith in what His Word says! I understood very little about the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I did not look for outward signs of either time. But I started digging in His Word after that to understand...



The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a gift of God which we can choose to receive after we become Christians (Acts 1:4-5, Luke 11:11-13) this is what happen to me anyway, and the purpose of this gift is to empower every believer for being a witness of Christ to a hurting and unbelieving world (Acts 1:4-8, Luke 24:49). The usual outward evidence that we have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not that we "feel" anything but that we are able to begin praying in tongues (but not limited to just this) by the Holy Spirit. There is overwhelming Scriptural evidence for this in His Word.

I just don't get it though. I have asked for this special gift which you claim is available to all believers. I already witness to the lost for Christ and I teach the bible to others through SS and mens meetings. So why doesn't God give me these tongues or gift of healing people and such?

How many times did you have to ask?
 

awaken

Active Member
I just don't get it though. I have asked for this special gift which you claim is available to all believers. I already witness to the lost for Christ and I teach the bible to others through SS and mens meetings. So why doesn't God give me these tongues or gift of healing people and such?

How many times did you have to ask?





After you become a Christian, you have the right to ask your heavenly Father for the gift of the Holy Spirit:

"On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."" (Acts 1:4-5)

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (Luke 11:13)

Notice what Luke 11:13 says about how to receive the gift of the baptism of the Holy Spirit: We simply need to ask for it! Remember, we don't receive salvation by asking for the gift of the Holy Spirit, so Luke 11:13 (above) is not talking about receiving salvation. It's talking about receiving the gift of the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:4-5).

Remember, you are asking Jesus for the promised gift of the power of the Holy Spirit for living the victorious life and for doing the things that God calls you to do for the glory of Jesus. Speaking in tongues is the result of receiving the power of the Holy Spirit, it is not the goal.

Just as you received salvation by faith, you also receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit by faith. When you ask Jesus to do this for you, believe in faith that you have received it (just as you believe in faith that you have received salvation).
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Remember, you are asking Jesus for the promised gift of the power of the Holy Spirit for living the victorious life and for doing the things that God calls you to do for the glory of Jesus. Speaking in tongues is the result of receiving the power of the Holy Spirit, it is not the goal.

Just as you received salvation by faith, you also receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit by faith. When you ask Jesus to do this for you, believe in faith that you have received it (just as you believe in faith that you have received salvation).

Actually, I know I have salvation because of the Holy Spirit indwellement that has been joined with my spirit, which crys Abba Father. The faith I have is in the person of Jesus Christ. I know Him, therefore I believe Him, or have faith in Him.

You see, I know I have the Holy Spirit. But I don't see any of these "signs" in my life such as tongues, drinking posion, picking up snakes, etc. Matter of fact, I aint drinking no posion and I surely aint picking up any snakes. Does that mean I have a lack of faith?

I just don't se what I am missing here. Yeah, i'm not speaking in tingues, but do I really need that to do the works I have been doing? I'm not laying hands on anyone and healing them, but I would like to have that gift, but God has not given it to me, not yet anyways.
 
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