is the Holy Spirit Involved in the "Modern Charasmatic' Movemnent at all?

[awaken]

Wrong question. The real and honest question should be "What activities that are going on today, that are claimed by Charismatics to be exactly like what Jesus and the first century church did, are actually like them?"


The answer is few and far between. The problem for charismatics is they do not understand the nature of the gifts and are only seeking an experience rather than seeking a genuine relationship with God.

Churches on the whole are 180% away from what God started!
I do believe that God is drawing us back to Him in truth and the power of the Holy Spirit! THe REAL question is are we lined up with what He is doing today or are we going to stay stuck in what man has made of the church?

Some churches have opened up the door for Jesus to be welcome. A place where the Great Commission is taken seriously, worship is real and powerful, where spiritual gifts abound, spirtual battles are won, hurting people are welcome, healings occur, families feel safe and the Bible is released in the lives of people.

Then there are some churches that continue in man's traditions and doctrines..the power of God is missing! They can quote entire sermon outlines but cannot get a word from God. The Jesus they know is trapped in their Bibles, notes, theology, and traditions. Jesus is often missed in their zeal for their religion.

I chose 10 years ago to let go of MY doctrines and let the Holy Spirit teach me the truth! There is freedom in the truth! All the angry people with all their accusations and hatred can not take away what God has open my spirit up to!

Just for the record! I did not go out seeking what I know now...I was defending the other side of it! I was not or am I now seeking just an experience! What I have with my Lord is real and powerful!

 

[awaken]

The truth that you have embraced is not a Biblical truth at all.
Define "Manifestation of the Spirit."
I ask you to do that. You come up with some New Age, esoteric, existential, metaphysical, non-Biblical, "awakenized" personal definition of this term. IOW, you don't know what it means.
Let me quote from my previous quote to you, what the term means.
As I pointed out it is easy to see when looking at it from another translation:

THe manifestations are listed in vs. 8-10!

 

[Revmitchell]

Churches on the whole are 180% away from what God started!
I do believe that God is drawing us back to Him in truth and the power of the Holy Spirit! THe REAL question is are we lined up with what He is doing today or are we going to stay stuck in what man has made of the church?

Some churches have opened up the door for Jesus to be welcome. A place where the Great Commission is taken seriously, worship is real and powerful, where spiritual gifts abound, spirtual battles are won, hurting people are welcome, healings occur, families feel safe and the Bible is released in the lives of people.

Then there are some churches that continue in man's traditions and doctrines..the power of God is missing! They can quote entire sermon outlines but cannot get a word from God. The Jesus they know is trapped in their Bibles, notes, theology, and traditions. Jesus is often missed in their zeal for their religion.

I chose 10 years ago to let go of MY doctrines and let the Holy Spirit teach me the truth! There is freedom in the truth! All the angry people with all their accusations and hatred can not take away what God has open my spirit up to!

Just for the record! I did not go out seeking what I know now...I was defending the other side of it! I was not or am I now seeking just an experience! What I have with my Lord is real and powerful!

The gifts like healing and tongues are for outside the church. The abhorrent things like slain in the Spirit have no place in the Kingdom of God.

 

[awaken]

Awaken, many heart congratulations!

You have come to the right place to witness Satan kicking up his heels and going on a rampage.

All you have to do is mention that God's SWM are for today, and you gots yourself quite a show!
.

I KNOW the power of God has not changed! I do not limit His power even in the face of opposition! Satan does not scare me... Because we know who we are in Christ! Satan is defeated! He just does not want us to know it!

 

[awaken]

The gifts like healing and tongues are for outside the church.

How did you come up with this conclusion? So you disagree with DHK?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I have attempted to keep my posts here on Charismatic doctrine and practice, and I have mentioned a few people who I believe are fake.

It seems to me that some of you are being uncharitable to this member, Awaken. You seem to be making this a personal issue with this member rather than focusing on the Charismatic doctrine.

 

[Revmitchell]

How did you come up with this conclusion?

In every instance these gifts were used outside of the church. I Cor 14:22 makes it clear. They were always used in conjunction with sharing the gospel.

So you disagree with DHK?

Yes, I am not a cessationist.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I KNOW the power of God has not changed! I do not limit His power even in the face of opposition! Satan does not scare me... Because we know who we are in Christ! Satan is defeated! He just does not want us to know it!

I want to ask you this: You described yourself as a full gospel Baptist. While believing in the use of all the spiritual gifts, do you have a Baptist interpretation of these, or a Charismatic/Pentecostal one? In other words, do you believe that "baptism of the Holy Ghost" comes after conversion, with the initial evidence of tongues?

 

[Yeshua1]

How did you come up with this conclusion? So you disagree with DHK?

We Know that the Lord Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will witness to the REAL jesus of the Bible, and to confirm to REAL Gospel hat saves a sinner!

MOST of those teaching/preaching in modern charasmatic movemnent have a different jesus and Gospel, WHY would the Spirit of truth get involved and beat work with thsoe in error and heresy though?

Wouldn't that make jesus a liar?

 

[awaken]

I want to ask you this: You described yourself as a full gospel Baptist. While believing in the use of all the spiritual gifts, do you have a Baptist interpretation of these, or a Charismatic/Pentecostal one? In other words, do you believe that "baptism of the Holy Ghost" comes after conversion, with the initial evidence of tongues?

Well, I really do not know what either teach! I know this sounds strange so let me explain.

I was raised in a Baptist church..still in a Baptist church...But they never taught me what the gifts were (their interpretation). I was just explained that they no longer exist!

I believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. From what I read in scriptures and my own experience I believe that it can happen all at once or separate. In my case, I was a child of God for years before the Holy Spirit manifested Himself as explained in 1 Cor. 12-14. WHy is this? Did I have it all along and my unbelief kept me from experiencing or Did something else happen after my salvation? All I can share is something happen the night I repented of my unbelief concerning the manifestations of the Holy Spirit and by faith accepted the truth that was in scriptures. I did not speak in tongues at that time, maybe I could have but I did not.. but a joy and a peace that I can not explain...

 

[awaken]

We Know that the Lord Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will witness to the REAL jesus of the Bible, and to confirm to REAL Gospel hat saves a sinner!

MOST of those teaching/preaching in modern charasmatic movemnent have a different jesus and Gospel, WHY would the Spirit of truth get involved and beat work with thsoe in error and heresy though?

Wouldn't that make jesus a liar?

Yeshua, I can not say what all goes on in the charsmatic churches and I am not sure of most of their doctrines. Is some of it false? Probably!

That is why I am still in a Baptist church! Most of their doctrine is Biblical!

Can you explain this different gospel and Jesus that they teach?

 

[awaken]

In every instance these gifts were used outside of the church. I Cor 14:22 makes it clear. They were always used in conjunction with sharing the gospel.




Yes, I am not a cessationist.

What are you considering outside the church? Are you saying that they were not assembled together?

My understanding of 1 Cor. 12-14 is instructions on how to operate in order within the church setting.

 

[evangelist-7]

All I can share is something happen the night I repented of my unbelief
concerning the manifestations of the Holy Spirit
and by faith accepted the truth that was in scriptures.
I did not speak in tongues at that time, maybe I could have but I did not..
but a joy and a peace that I can not explain...

May I ask you ...
Have you since been gifted with one or more of the 9 spiritual power gifts in 1 Cor 12?

If so, you would have your proof that you have indeed been baptized with the Holy Spirit.
.

 

[awaken]

May I ask you ...
Have you since been gifted with one or more of the 9 spiritual power gifts in 1 Cor 12?

If so, you would have your proof that you have indeed been baptized with the Holy Spirit.
.

Yes, I have!

 

[DHK]

In every instance these gifts were used outside of the church. I Cor 14:22 makes it clear. They were always used in conjunction with sharing the gospel.

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Paul, throughout this chapter is rebuking the Corinthians for their abuse of the gift of tongues, as well as encouraging them to prophesy instead. The prophetic gift was far more profitable because all could understand. The gift of tongues was not profitable because no one could understand. Thus all the restrictions: only two or three, and that in order; no women allowed; if no interpreter keep silent; etc. If these restrictions were held to today I am sure tongues-speaking would stop.

Awaken, in the past, has admitted that she doesn't know what language (tongue) she speaks in, and it isn't interpreted. Therefore it is unbiblical.

The verse you speak of is inside the church. The gifts were not for evangelization. They were all for the edification of the church, the assembly of the believers. That is what a church is for. A local church is composed of baptized believers, not unbelievers.

In verse 21 it specifically states that tongues are given for a sign to the Jews. Keep in mind that Paul had already said "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all." He did so because he was a missionary and sometimes had the need to. Where did Paul go. His habit was to go to the synagogues and there preach the gospel. If the Lord led him to speak in another language it would be for the sake of those unbelieving Jews (Isa.28:11,12), that they might believe this message was from God. If they rejected it, judgment would come soon. They did reject it and judgment came in 70 A.D. That prophecy was fulfilled then. However it was a sign for the Jews. Verse 21 makes that clear.

In verse 22, I believe that the context is the same. The unbelievers refer to Jews; unbelieving Jews. The two verses should not be divorced from each other. He is speaking about the local church here, and the emphasis of the verse is on prophesy, not on tongues. He would rather that they prophesy but that is what is beneficial to the church which is composed of believers, not unbelieving Jews (or your view "unbelievers"). He is speaking to the local church throughout the chapter.

Every single verse and restriction or command is directed to the local church at Corinth as a whole.

 

[awaken]

1Awaken, in the past, has admitted that she doesn't know what language (tongue) she speaks in, and it isn't interpreted. Therefore it is unbiblical.

Were the tongues interpreted in Acts 10 or 19? NO! Praying in the Spirit does not need to be interpreted unless it is during a called out assembly/church.
Awaken, does not have to know the tongue spoken! If I did then why would I have to pray for an interpretation?

 

[Tom Butler]

So, when I have laid hands on someone, and when a brother or sister prayed with me in agreement
"in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God" (or some such prayer),
and the person was obviously instantly healed, what happened?
.

Just curious. If one has the gift of healing, why is it necessary to lay hands on a sick person? Why is it necessary to pray for him? Why is it necessary to have somebody pray in agreement with you? Why does one with the healing gift need to invoke the name of Jesus?

Seems to me that one who has such a gift has it absolutely, and none of the things I mentioned above are necessary--and, in fact, those who employe them are just showing off.

 

[DHK]

Were the tongues interpreted in Acts 10 or 19? NO! Praying in the Spirit does not need to be interpreted unless it is during a called out assembly/church.
Awaken, does not have to know the tongue spoken! If I did then why would I have to pray for an interpretation?

The Book of Acts is just that: "the acts of the Apostles."
Up to chapter 10 there was no other church but the local church in Jerusalem. The tongues were a sign for the Jews.
Likewise in chapter 19. These were OT saints, Jews, never having heard of the Holy Spirit but only having been baptized by John. Again, tongues was a sign to the Jews. The book of Acts is a history book not a book of doctrine. The doctrinal issues are dealt with in the epistles, particular the First Epistle to the Corinthians.

If you want to know a good source for information on the gift of tongues, and will be willing to learn about what Paul's teaching on them is, then take a look at these links:

[FONT=&quot]http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/1871/the-truth-about-tongues-part-1[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/1872/the-truth-about-tongues-part-2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/1873/the-truth-about-tongues-part-3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/1874/the-truth-about-tongues-part-4[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[Thomas Helwys]

May I ask you ...
Have you since been gifted with one or more of the 9 spiritual power gifts in 1 Cor 12?

If so, you would have your proof that you have indeed been baptized with the Holy Spirit.
.

See, that right there is Charismatic/Pentecostal false doctrine. Every believer has been baptized with the Holy Spirit, and the evidence of such baptism/regeneration is LOVE and the fruits of the spirit.

Charismatic theology sets up two classes of believers, those who have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit and those who have, making the former second-class Christians and therefore inferior to the latter. Charismatic theology thus creates an attitude of spiritual superiority in its adherents.

 

[evangelist-7]

Awaken, in the past, has admitted that she doesn't know what language (tongue)
she speaks in, and it isn't interpreted. Therefore it is unbiblical.

Paul's instructions that tongues must be interpreted only pertained to during the church meetings!

While you're instructing everybody on everything imaginable, please be so kind
as to advise the MANY millions worldwide that they must NOT speak in tongues
at any time unless someone is there who can (and will) interpret them!

However, I must admit that I am not able to advise as to how you can accomplish this great and noble task.

P.S.1 ... Many thanks for the valuable info that Awaken is female ... I shall watch my language more closely.

P.S.2 ... A heads-up: Attacking God's anointed saints is unbiblical (dangerous to one's health even).

P.S.3 ... Most born-again Christians are not anointed, they're only born-again.
.