is the Holy Spirit Involved in the "Modern Charasmatic' Movemnent at all?

[awaken]

The problem for your theology is that none of the scriptures you use support your view, which is indeed the false Pentecostal/Charismatic view and not the Baptist one, or the scriptural truth.You have said nothing to refute what I have posted.

One does not have to seek something which they've been given at conversion. There is no Christian who has not been baptized with the HS.

Then address each scripture I gave and explain away the fact that they received the baptism in the Holy Spirit after believing and baptized with water in some cases.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Then address each scripture I gave and explain away the fact that they received the baptism in the Holy Spirit after believing and baptized with water in some cases.

I already explained that in a previous post, #205. You know, the one where you quoted three sentences from and apparently didn't read the rest of it. I suggest you go back and do so.

 

[DHK]

"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (Luke 11:11-13)

The key to understanding this passage is that Jesus gives examples of a son asking his father for a gift, and then He says that "your Father" will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask.

This is just one example of you taking Scripture out of context and misapplying it. Why was the Holy Spirit given to them in the gospels, and what is he referring to. Twice Jesus sent them out. Once he sent out the Twelve and once he sent out 70. They, through the Spirit, had power over demons, power to heal, etc.
If they received the Holy Spirit then, then there was no need for Pentecost, right? They already had the Holy Spirit, Why Pentecost?
You see; you do not rightly divide the word of truth. You take scripture out of context, mix and match them at your own will. You have a drawer full of socks all mixed together and none of them match. You reach in and take any two without regard. You don't care whether they match or go with the clothing you wear.
You don't seem to be able to "rightly divide the word of truth."

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Let me make this note: It is possible to not be a cessationist and still be a Baptist. But the doctrine that HS baptism comes subsequent to conversion, as a second experience, and evidenced by tongues, is Pentecostalism, pure and simple. It is not Baptist.

 

[awaken]

There is so much confusion and error in this post that I don't know where to begin. There is nothing in scripture to support that one gets the HS when water baptized, neither fully or a measure of the HS.

The times in scripture that the HS was not given simultaneously with belief were special circumstances: at Pentecost, because the gift of the HS was not given until then, and the two places you mentioned: with the Gentiles, the gift of HS was delayed until Peter and the Jews could witness firsthand that the Gospel was also for the Gentiles; the second instance, these were John's disciples, not disciples of Jesus, and had only received John's baptism.

The fatal error of Pentecostals and Charismatics is that they want to take these special one-time circumstances that never occurred again and make them normative for every Christian in every age!! This is simply NOT the case! Every believer after Pentecost and after the Gospel was given to the Gentiles is baptized by the HS upon first coming to faith in Christ. The fruits of the Spirit are evidence of this HS baptism, not some spiritual gift and especially not tongues which is a distortion of the scriptures.

Pentecostalism is harmful. It makes two classes of Christians and promotes spiritual arrogance. It makes people seek something which they already have, but if they don't get this supposed baptism with the supposed evidence of tongues, they are not fully accepted into the tribe.

People reading this had better be aware of something else: fruits of the spirit cannot be counterfeited; tongues can and are.

Pentecostalism is based on a false interpretation of scripture with harmful results.

I believe all the gifts are available today, but NONE of them are given based on a supposed HS baptism that has to be sought after conversion. God gives them according to His will to every believer, just as he baptizes every believer in the HS at the time when they come to faith in Christ.

You did not address the scriptures! YOu gave your opinions! Again..explain the scriptures I quoted!

 

[awaken]

"But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. ... When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8:12-17)

Notice that Peter and John were not sent to Samaria until the apostles heard that the Samaritans had received salvation by believing the Gospel message which Philip had preached. When Peter and John arrived, they laid hands on the Samaritans and then the Holy Spirit came on the Samaritans. Therefore, some amount of time passed between the moment the Samaritans were saved and the moment they "received" the Holy Spirit. This brings up an interesting question. Most Christian denominations teach that everyone automatically receives the indwelling Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation, so why does it appear as if the Samaritans did not automatically receive the Holy Spirit when they received salvation? There is a very simple answer to this question, and this answer is clear as we gain a better understanding of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

This passage says that the Holy Spirit had not yet "come upon" any of the Samaritans. Notice that this is the same wording which is used to describe the baptism of the Holy Spirit in all of the examples.

 

[plain_n_simple]

One does not have to seek something which they've been given at conversion. There is no Christian who has not been baptized with the HS.

In the bible, we can see that saved people, those who are called believers and disciples by Paul, having been baptized in water, did not get baptized in the Holy Spirit at the same time as their water baptism.

Acts 19:

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

These saved, sealed, salvation assured, followers of Christ, had not been baptized with the Holy Spirit at their conversion. They had no idea what the Holy Spirit was let alone experience the power.

This scripture defines Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism as two distinct events.

Water Baptism is an outward symbol of washing away all sin, the old person dying, and a new creature rising up in Christ.

Holy Spirit Baptism is anointing the new creature with the power to perform the works Jesus did, Him working through the new creature.

To say that a person receives the Holy Spirit Baptism automatically at Water Baptism, is a misunderstanding or ignorance of scripture, regardless of whose denominational box it fits or does not fit.

This can be proved or disproved by examining fruit.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

You did not address the scriptures! YOu gave your opinions! Again..explain the scriptures I quoted!

Can you not READ?! You asked me to explain the exceptions. I did in that post that I referenced that you only quoted three sentences from. Go back and read it, for heaven's sake!!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

"But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. ... When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8:12-17)

Notice that Peter and John were not sent to Samaria until the apostles heard that the Samaritans had received salvation by believing the Gospel message which Philip had preached. When Peter and John arrived, they laid hands on the Samaritans and then the Holy Spirit came on the Samaritans. Therefore, some amount of time passed between the moment the Samaritans were saved and the moment they "received" the Holy Spirit. This brings up an interesting question. Most Christian denominations teach that everyone automatically receives the indwelling Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation, so why does it appear as if the Samaritans did not automatically receive the Holy Spirit when they received salvation? There is a very simple answer to this question, and this answer is clear as we gain a better understanding of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

This passage says that the Holy Spirit had not yet "come upon" any of the Samaritans. Notice that this is the same wording which is used to describe the baptism of the Holy Spirit in all of the examples.

You can't seem tom grasp it, can you? The reason for the delay is the same reason I explained previously. This was a unique and exceptional circumstance: The Gospel first being preached and accepted by non-Jews. To confirm that the Gospel was indeed for all, the giving of the HS was delayed until the apostles could go and be personal witnesses that the Samaritans had indeed received and accepted the Gospel.

If one is not discerning and able to recognize these exceptions as a departure from the norm, a whole false doctrine will be built on these few unique circumstances and exceptions, as Pentecostalism has done.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

In the bible, we can see that saved people, those who are called believers and disciples by Paul, having been baptized in water, did not get baptized in the Holy Spirit at the same time as their water baptism.

Acts 19:

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

These saved, sealed, salvation assured, followers of Christ, had not been baptized with the Holy Spirit at their conversion. They had no idea what the Holy Spirit was let alone experience the power.

This scripture defines Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism as two distinct events.

Water Baptism is an outward symbol of washing away all sin, the old person dying, and a new creature rising up in Christ.

Holy Spirit Baptism is anointing the new creature with the power to perform the works Jesus did, Him working through the new creature.

To say that a person receives the Holy Spirit Baptism automatically at Water Baptism, is a misunderstanding or ignorance of scripture, regardless of whose denominational box it fits or does not fit.

This can be proved or disproved by examining fruit.

Guess you didn't read my earlier response to you that dismantles your aberrant theology. I don't know what you are, but it ain't Baptist! It's not Baptist in your Pentecostal errors, nor in your baptism theology in which you keep talking about receiving the HS or HS baptism at water baptism. No Baptist believes that, maybe Church of Christ or RCC or someone else who teaches baptismal regeneration, but not Baptists.

Just to point out one error of yours: These "disciples" you speak of were not Christians, they were disciples of John and had only received John's baptism. I pointed that out to you before, in post #205, but like Awaken, you apparently read only what you wish, and ignore the facts.

 

[evangelist-7]

Let me make this note: It is possible to not be a cessationist and still be a Baptist.
But the doctrine that HS baptism comes subsequent to conversion, as a second experience,
and evidenced by tongues, is Pentecostalism, pure and simple.
It is not Baptist.

Here's another of your posts that I believe is 100% true.
.

 

[awaken]

You can't seem tom grasp it, can you? The reason for the delay is the same reason I explained previously. This was a unique and exceptional circumstance: The Gospel first being preached and accepted by non-Jews. To confirm that the Gospel was indeed for all, the giving of the HS was delayed until the apostles could go and be personal witnesses that the Samaritans had indeed received and accepted the Gospel.

If one is not discerning and able to recognize these exceptions as a departure from the norm, a whole false doctrine will be built on these few unique circumstances and exceptions, as Pentecostalism has done.

THe same Holy Spirit that is here today was poured out on the Day of Pentecost! THese are not only one time events! THey are still happening today! Read Acts 2:39! It is for all that are called by our Lord calls!

 

[awaken]

You can't seem tom grasp it, can you? The reason for the delay is the same reason I explained previously. This was a unique and exceptional circumstance: The Gospel first being preached and accepted by non-Jews. To confirm that the Gospel was indeed for all, the giving of the HS was delayed until the apostles could go and be personal witnesses that the Samaritans had indeed received and accepted the Gospel.

If one is not discerning and able to recognize these exceptions as a departure from the norm, a whole false doctrine will be built on these few unique circumstances and exceptions, as Pentecostalism has done.

How do you come to this conclusion? Where does it say in context that the believers did not receive the Holy Spirit because they had to get the apostles approval?

 

[evangelist-7]

THe same Holy Spirit that is here today was poured out on the Day of Pentecost!
THese are not only one time events! THey are still happening today!
Read Acts 2:39! It is for all that are called by our Lord calls!

Let us point this out again for everyone's edification ...

The initial event on the Day of Pentecost most definitely was a one-time event ...
because of the mighty rushing wind and the tongues of fire alighting on each one of da 120!

Note:
The following event on the same Day (with Peter) was somewhat similar,
but did NOT have the wind and/or tongues of fire.
Ditto with all of the other Spirit-baptisms recorded in Acts.

Too bad everyone's Bible doesn't refer to Acts as ... The Acts of the Holy Spirit,
instead of "The Acts of the Apostles".

But, Bible translators never were the sharpest tools in anyone's shed.

But, why not be technical and add ...
When believers were Spirit-baptized in Acts, it was The Acts of Jesus the Lord.
.

 

[awaken]

Can you not READ?! You asked me to explain the exceptions. I did in that post that I referenced that you only quoted three sentences from. Go back and read it, for heaven's sake!!

I did read it! But you can not explain away what is plain in scriptures!


The Samaritans believed the Good News of Jesus Christ which Philip was preaching (verse 12) and they accepted the Word of God (verse 14), and then they were baptized in water because they had received salvation by faith after hearing the Good News. This is exactly the same situation as in Acts 2:41, and therefore we know that the Samaritans had received salvation just as the Jews did in Acts 2:41. Next we are told that the Samaritans waited for a period of time until the apostles Peter and John arrived in Samaria, and then the Samaritans "received" the Holy Spirit. But shouldn't they have "received" the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation like everyone else does? NOWHERE DOES IS SAY WHAT YOU SAID..

 

[awaken]

Let us point this out again for everyone's edification ...

The initial event on the Day of Pentecost most definitely was a one-time event ...
because of the mighty rushing wind and the tongues of fire alighting on each one of da 120!

Note:
The following event on the same Day (with Peter) did not have the wind and/or tongues of fire.
.

I agree that the HOly Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost was unique. THat was the first time but the same Holy Spirit is for all that are called by God!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

THe same Holy Spirit that is here today was poured out on the Day of Pentecost! THese are not only one time events! THey are still happening today! Read Acts 2:39! It is for all that are called by our Lord calls!

First, let me apologize for my previous tone. I don't want to post in the manner of some here. I said it out of frustration more than anything, frustration that you didn't seem to be reading but small parts of my posts.

Now to this post of yours, which still frustrates me! I know it is the same HS today as at Pentecost; why do you think I believe that it is not?!

So, you don't think Pentecost was a one-time special event?! God help you!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

How do you come to this conclusion? Where does it say in context that the believers did not receive the Holy Spirit because they had to get the apostles approval?

I really wonder about your ability to understand what I am saying, and that is not a disparaging remark but an honest appraisal. Where did I say they had to get the apostles' approval?!

This is what I said: "This was a unique and exceptional circumstance: The Gospel first being preached and accepted by non-Jews. To confirm that the Gospel was indeed for all, the giving of the HS was delayed until the apostles could go and be personal witnesses that the Samaritans had indeed received and accepted the Gospel."

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I did read it! But you can not explain away what is plain in scriptures!


The Samaritans believed the Good News of Jesus Christ which Philip was preaching (verse 12) and they accepted the Word of God (verse 14), and then they were baptized in water because they had received salvation by faith after hearing the Good News. This is exactly the same situation as in Acts 2:41, and therefore we know that the Samaritans had received salvation just as the Jews did in Acts 2:41. Next we are told that the Samaritans waited for a period of time until the apostles Peter and John arrived in Samaria, and then the Samaritans "received" the Holy Spirit. But shouldn't they have "received" the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation like everyone else does? NOWHERE DOES IS SAY WHAT YOU SAID..

Can't you understand anything?! This was a first instance of the Gospel being received by non-Jews, a unique event. The gift of the Spirit was delayed until Peter and John could personally witness to the fact that the Gospel was for everyone, not just Jews. Don't you recall the example of Cornelius and what God did with Peter?

The Gospel began within Judaism; it was first preached only to the Jews.

Read your Bible, for Christ's sake!!!

These few instances of the HS being delayed were unique, one-time, exceptional circumstances and events at the beginning of the Christian movement, not something to base an entire doctrine, practice, and even denominations on!

 

[plain_n_simple]

We have shown scripture that Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism are two distinct events. Acts 19....Matt 3...etc.

Lets look at the results of being Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

In the bible Jesus demonstrates the power of the Holy Spirit with many miracles and authoritative preaching. It's what drew people to Him. Jesus and His ministry are the mark.

Without the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, a ministry will strive and reach for anything they find to bring in new converts and keep the sheep entertained.

Jesus used no worldly methods to entice the senses then, and He does not use worldly fables now.

Let's look at Thomas Helwys Baptist Church and see the Holy Spirit in action.



http://www.thomashelwysnottingham.org.uk/?page_id=83


Well, I think we need to investigate the origins of Jack and the Beanstock and see if this is light or darkness.

There is a harp that plays by itself, and magic beans, a goose that lays golden eggs, and a beanstalk that reaches to the heavens. The main character steals some gold coins and then kills a giant.

Interesting.

I've read the entire fable, and yet it makes no mention of Jesus Christ, or relying on Him. The savior of the story is a boy who steals and kills, and relies on magic, and lives happily ever after.

Is this a better story to tell children than the story of Jesus?

I wonder why a church that claims they have the Holy Spirit, would rely on something that does not exist, and has nothing to do with Jesus Christ?

Must be a Baptist thing.