Is the Land of Israel Still a Special Place to God?

[Dave G]

@Scripture More Accurately :
I'll make these my final replies in this thread, since there are many on this board who seem convinced that the prophecies yet to come have already either been fulfilled, or are being fulfilled figuratively.

As part of these replies, I will direct them to comments made in post # 39:

Not so, there is no 1000 year reign on earth.

Revelation 19:11-21.
Revelation 20:1-9.

" And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." ( Revelation 20:7-9 ).

This tells me that the beloved city, the camp of the saints, is on the earth, not in Heaven.
The beloved city called Jerusalem, God's holy mountain and Zion, and the one which He reigns from just as Zechariah 14 and Micah 4 tells me.

 

[Dave G]

There is eternal reign in heaven.

If this is true,
Then there will be no new heavens and a new earth, and the New Jerusalem will not come down out of Heaven to the earth as Revelation 21 states...
Because according to what I see you saying, His reign is forever in Heaven, and we will be with Him there.

The meek shall not inherit the earth as the Lord tells us in Matthew 5:5 and other places like Psalms 37:9-11 and Psalms 69:35-36, but shall reign in Heaven with the Lord.

The reference in Revelation of a 1000 year reign is actually a reward given to those martyrs killed during the great tribulation to “reign with Christ” for 1000 years. That reign is in heaven.

See the quoted Scriptures above in Revelation 20:7-9.
Satan will be released out of his prison, ( the bottomless pit ) for the specific purpose to go and deceive the nations which are on the earth after the 1,000 years are expired.

Those nations will go up on the "breadth" ( wideness ) of the earth and surround the camp of the saints, the beloved city, which is on the earth...
and fire will come down out of Heaven and devour those armies that are gathered against it and them.

That is what the passage states, and I am at a loss as to why this is apparently seen as symbolic by you.
To me they are plain, and show me a period of time in which God's people shall rule and reign with the Lord Jesus on the earth before He wipes it all clean and creates it all new, as Revelation 21 states.

 

[Dave G]

No earthly reign, no earthly Jerusalem, no separate future for Israel and the church,, no re-establishment of an earthly temple and sacrifices.

Revelation 20,
Zechariah 10.
Zechariah 12:6-14
Zechariah 13:1-9
Zechariah 14:1-21
Isaiah 2:1-5.
Isaiah 3:1-26.
Isaiah 4:1-6.
Ezekiel 36:8-38.
Ezekiel 37:21-28.
Malachi 3:1-4.
Malachi 4:1-3.
Micah 4:1-13.
Jeremiah 30:1-22.
Jeremiah 31:1-40.
Jeremiah 33:1-22.

...many others.

The separate future for Israel is the same as that of His elect out of every tongue, tribe and nation.

The special purpose of that land has been fulfilled with Jesus Christ.

Not according to what I see in God's word, it hasn't.

Much of it has yet to be fulfilled, and the Lord Jesus will rule and reign from Jerusalem with His saints for 1,000 years, sitting on the throne of His father David.
This will occur after the Tribulation and after His gathering us to Him when He comes again.

God's purpose for the land is not yet done, and He has much to show His people in this regard.

That said, I wish you well, despite our disagreement.
May God bless you richly and with much in the way of His goodness.

 

[kyredneck]

Not so. When Jesus returns, He is going to rule with a rod of iron from Jerusalem for a 1000 years over His millennial kingdom on the earth.

Not so. Lo! Here! Lo there! He's sitting on a throne in the new temple on the temple Mt in Jerusalem, Israel! Not! Don't bother to go.

20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them:
24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lk 17

He is everywhere. Now.

 

[Lodic]

During Christ's encounter with the Samaritan Woman at the Well, she "perceives that He is a prophet". She said "our people worship on this mountain, and (the Jews) say that Jerusalem is the place to worship. In John 4:21, Jesus answered her "Believe me, woman, that an hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father". For me, this passage further supports my view that the Land of Israel has no special purpose for God. On another note, it also disproves the "3rd Temple" myth, but I digress.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

@Scripture More Accurately :
I'll make these my final replies in this thread, since there are many on this board who seem convinced that the prophecies yet to come have already either been fulfilled, or are being fulfilled figuratively.

As part of these replies, I will direct them to comments made in post # 39:

Revelation 19:11-21.
Revelation 20:1-9.

" And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." ( Revelation 20:7-9 ).

This tells me that the beloved city, the camp of the saints, is on the earth, not in Heaven.
The beloved city called Jerusalem, God's holy mountain and Zion, and the one which He reigns from just as Zechariah 14 and Micah 4 tells me.

These passages and so many others are crystal clear in teaching us that there will be a millennium.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

If this is true,
Then there will be no new heavens and a new earth, and the New Jerusalem will not come down out of Heaven to the earth as Revelation 21 states...
Because according to what I see you saying, His reign is forever in Heaven, and we will be with Him there.

The meek shall not inherit the earth as the Lord tells us in Matthew 5:5 and other places like Psalms 37:9-11 and Psalms 69:35-36, but shall reign in Heaven with the Lord.

See the quoted Scriptures above in Revelation 20:7-9.
Satan will be released out of his prison, ( the bottomless pit ) for the specific purpose to go and deceive the nations which are on the earth after the 1,000 years are expired.

Those nations will go up on the "breadth" ( wideness ) of the earth and surround the camp of the saints, the beloved city, which is on the earth...
and fire will come down out of Heaven and devour those armies that are gathered against it and them.

That is what the passage states, and I am at a loss as to why this is apparently seen as symbolic by you.
To me they are plain, and show me a period of time in which God's people shall rule and reign with the Lord Jesus on the earth before He wipes it all clean and creates it all new, as Revelation 21 states.

The passages are not symbolic, but those who have a pre-commitment to a position have to make things symbolic that do not support their view.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

51% of US Evangelicals believe Jews are ‘still God’s chosen people’: poll

Interesting results from a poll that concerned a different but related question to that of my thread.

 

[kyredneck]

51% of US Evangelicals believe Jews are ‘still God’s chosen people’: poll

Interesting results from a poll that concerned a different but related question to that of my thread.

That just shows the scope of the deception. Satan is the master deceiver.

 

[canadyjd]

If this is true,
Then there will be no new heavens and a new earth, and the New Jerusalem will not come down out of Heaven to the earth as Revelation 21 states...
Because according to what I see you saying, His reign is forever in Heaven, and we will be with Him there.

The meek shall not inherit the earth as the Lord tells us in Matthew 5:5 and other places like Psalms 37:9-11 and Psalms 69:35-36, but shall reign in Heaven with the Lord.

See the quoted Scriptures above in Revelation 20:7-9.
Satan will be released out of his prison, ( the bottomless pit ) for the specific purpose to go and deceive the nations which are on the earth after the 1,000 years are expired.

Those nations will go up on the "breadth" ( wideness ) of the earth and surround the camp of the saints, the beloved city, which is on the earth...
and fire will come down out of Heaven and devour those armies that are gathered against it and them.

That is what the passage states, and I am at a loss as to why this is apparently seen as symbolic by you.
To me they are plain, and show me a period of time in which God's people shall rule and reign with the Lord Jesus on the earth before He wipes it all clean and creates it all new, as Revelation 21 states.

Hebrews 5:7-10 speaks of Jesus, after His resurrection, being High Priest forever after the order of Melkizedek. Hebrews 7 tells us it is an unchangeable Priesthood. Hebrews 8:1-4 tells us Jesus serves as High Priest forever at the right hand of the throne of majesty in heaven and then says… v.4

“if He were in the earth, He would not be a priest.”

Jesus has an eternal High Priesthood in heaven. Scripture specifically says His priesthood is in heaven, unchangeable and “if He were on the earth, He would not be a priest.” He reigns forever in heaven.

Revelation if full of symbolism. John writes in repeated themes, not in chronological order. The mention of the saints reigning in heaven with Jesus for 1000 years is a reward for faithfulness.

Thanks for the well wishes. Blessings to you as well.

peace to you

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

That just shows the scope of the deception. Satan is the master deceiver.

No, Scripture reveals that Satan is the great enemy of God and of His chosen people, the nation of Israel. Anti-Semitic theology and sentiments are not from God.

 

[Lodic]

No, Scripture reveals that Satan is the great enemy of God and of His chosen people, the nation of Israel. Anti-Semitic theology and sentiments are not from God.

I'm not anti-Semitic, but neither do I believe physical Israel is God's chosen people.

God's "chosen people" is Spiritual Israel. Romans 2:11 tells us "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God". In a similar vein, Galatians 3:28-29 tells us "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise". It’s not flesh and blood Israelites who are the heirs of the promises first made to Abraham. If a person belongs to Christ, then he or she is an heir of Abraham. Back to the point of this thread, it's not about physical Israel or the land that He gave them. God is looking for a people, not a piece of geography.

[EDIT] Lest anyone bring forth the charge of "Replacement Theology", I will explain a bit further. There is continuity between the covenants. There were Israelite believers before, during, and after Christ’s earthly ministry. They were incorporated into the “great cloud of witnesses” from the Old Covenant age (Hebrews 12:1). Jewish believers in the New Testament include Zacharias, Elizabeth, John, Mary, Joseph, Simeon, Anna, and many others.

 

[kyredneck]

No, Scripture reveals that Satan is the great enemy of God and of His chosen people, the nation of Israel. Anti-Semitic theology and sentiments are not from God.

Are you Jewish?

 

[kyredneck]

He is going to rule with a rod of iron from Jerusalem for a 1000 years over His millennial kingdom on the earth.

Earthly Jerusalem is 'the great city Babylon' in Revelation:

8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Rev 11

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. Rev 16
18 And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev 17
10 standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all. Rev 18

And the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in that apostate religion:

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.
21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth Rev 18.

The religion of the Jews has been left unto them DESOLATE:

34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23

19 .... Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever..... Mt 21

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Are you Jewish?

No.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Earthly Jerusalem is 'the great city Babylon' in Revelation:

8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Rev 11

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. Rev 16
18 And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev 17
10 standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all. Rev 18

And the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in that apostate religion:

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.
21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth Rev 18.

The religion of the Jews has been left unto them DESOLATE:

34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23

19 .... Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever..... Mt 21

Wrong. Revelation 11:8 and Revelation 18:19-21 are not talking about the same city. There is no basis to assert that they are the same.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I'm not anti-Semitic, but neither do I believe physical Israel is God's chosen people.

God's "chosen people" is Spiritual Israel. Romans 2:11 tells us "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God". In a similar vein, Galatians 3:28-29 tells us "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise". It’s not flesh and blood Israelites who are the heirs of the promises first made to Abraham. If a person belongs to Christ, then he or she is an heir of Abraham. Back to the point of this thread, it's not about physical Israel or the land that He gave them. God is looking for a people, not a piece of geography.

[EDIT] Lest anyone bring forth the charge of "Replacement Theology", I will explain a bit further. There is continuity between the covenants. There were Israelite believers before, during, and after Christ’s earthly ministry. They were incorporated into the “great cloud of witnesses” from the Old Covenant age (Hebrews 12:1). Jewish believers in the New Testament include Zacharias, Elizabeth, John, Mary, Joseph, Simeon, Anna, and many others.

Replacement theology is false teaching.

In any case, the point of this thread is that the physical city of Jerusalem and land of Israel were and are special to God. The city and land were never special to Him because the Israelites were any better than any other people; the city and land were are and are special to Him because of God's sovereign choice of that city and land.

I have provided biblical bases for holding that viewpoint.

 

[Lodic]

Replacement theology is false teaching.

In any case, the point of this thread is that the physical city of Jerusalem and land of Israel were and are special to God. The city and land were never special to Him because the Israelites were any better than any other people; the city and land were are and are special to Him because of God's sovereign choice of that city and land.

I have provided biblical bases for holding that viewpoint.

I explained in my post that I am not advocating "Replacement Theology", but I explained how "Spiritual Israel" is a continuation of physical Israel.

Jerusalem is not special to God, as we see in the "woman at the well" encounter of John 4. God's sovereign choice of "Canaan's Land" was only for the purpose to giving the nation of Israel a home. I do not agree with your interpretation of Deuteronomy 11:11-12. Israel is important to us in the sense that it's our only ally in the Middle East, but that's all.

 

[kyredneck]

Wrong. Revelation 11:8 and Revelation 18:19-21 are not talking about the same city. There is no basis to assert that they are the same.

You have very poor reading comprehension if you see no basis:

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth Rev 18.

35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets,.... Mt 23

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You have very poor reading comprehension if you see no basis:

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth Rev 18.

35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets,.... Mt 23

I will not stoop to your level of directing insulting remarks toward you . . .

Rather, I will stick to treating what is being asserted about Scripture.

Although the passages have some similarities, they are not speaking of the same thing and have important differences.

First, Rev. 18:24 speaks of a city in which was found the blood of various people, but Matt. 23:35 does not say that the blood of those people spoken of in that passage was actually found in that city. Instead, it says that the blood of certain people would come upon certain evil people to whom those words were addressed--"scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites" (Matt. 23:29).

Second, Rev. 18:24 does not specify that the blood of all prophets, saints, and all that have been slain on the earth throughout all time was found in that city. Nor does that last phrase limit the blood to that only of all the righteous who have been slain on the earth.

Matt. 23:35, however, does specify a time span and a specific kind of people by saying that the blood of the righteous from Abel, who was the first martyr ever, to Zachariah who was killed at a specific point in time.

Matt. 23:35 was spoken after John the Baptist was martyred and yet it only limits the judicial accounting up to the slaying of Zachariah, who was slain long before John was slain. This passage, therefore, does not even account for the slaying of John the Baptist.

Third, Rev. 18:24 speaks of a city in which was found the blood of various people. It does not say anything about a specific people upon whom that blood would come. Matt. 23:35, however, says that the blood of the slain people who were spoken of in that passage would come upon that generation of people.

Fourth, Rev. 18:24 does not specify that the blood of the prophets spoken of in that passage was of only those prophets who were sent to Babylon or to any other specific places. Matt. 23:37, however, limits the extent of what is spoken of there by saying in a part of the verse that you did not quote that it was the blood of those who were sent specifically to Jerusalem:

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

There are additional differences that make clear further that these passages are not speaking of the same things and of the same city, but I do not have time to treat those differences this morning.