Is the OT Binding on us Today?

[J. Jump]

Although I agree baptism is not required for eternal salvation there is a type in the OT.

I guess I should have been a little more clear. There is no OT type that ties baptism into eternal salvation. There are types of baptism in the OT. The Red Sea crossing being the most famous if you will.

Baptism in the OT is always shown to be after salvation has occurred.

TCGreek don't blow a gasket I was merely giving an example that was timely as per other discussions. Wasn't trying ti incite anything.

 

[npetreley]

I ate a few chapters and I found that the fiber helped it not to be so binding.

 

[psalms109:31]

1 Peter 3

18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

 

[TCGreek]

1. So when Paul, living under the New Covenant, says that the Timothy grew on the sacred Scriptures (και οτι απο βρεφους ιερα γραμματα οιδας τα δυναμενα σε σοφισαι εις σωτηριαν δια πιστεως της εν χριστω ιησου, 2 Tim 2:15) which enabled him to produce faith in Christ Jesus for salvation, what do we make of that?

2. All Scripture is breathed out by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17), What Scripture is he talking about?

3. "For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope." (Romans 15:4, ESV, emphasis mine)

4. The word translated "instruction" is διδασκαλιαν is the same word in 2 Tim 3:16 that is translated "teaching."

5. Precisely because the OT is the inspired word of God and it teaches us, it is therefore binding on us today.

 

[EdSutton]

I ate a few chapters and I found that the fiber helped it not to be so binding.

Glad it is all cleared out - 'er I mean all cleared up, now. :tonofbricks:

Ed

 

[Jkdbuck76]

5. Precisely because the OT is the inspired word of God and it teaches us, it is therefore binding on us today.

Does that mean we're supposed to still be smiting witches?
I'm serious.

When you say "binding on us today", what do you mean?
And to what extent?

 

[TCGreek]

Does that mean we're supposed to still be smiting witches?
I'm serious.

When you say "binding on us today", what do you mean?
And to what extent?

1. Now if the apostle Paul says that it is "useful for instruction," then we must ask ourselves, In what way?

2. For example, What is our source of authority for using instrumental music in worship? What is the our of our tithing? Is it from the New Covenant? Hardly!

3. So what of the OT? I don't think we should be stoning witches for the same reason disobedient children should not be cut off from the community.

 

[Analgesic]

It seems to me that the OT being binding doesn't necessarily follow from it being good for teaching. For example, I can look at God's laws and see His wisdom in proscribing rules of cleanliness to be followed that would have simply been commanded rituals to the people of the day, but of which we can now see the practical benefits. This teaches me a great deal about the nature of God and the wisdom of His commandments without presuming that the OT law is still binding today.

 

[TCGreek]

It seems to me that the OT being binding doesn't necessarily follow from it being good for teaching. For example, I can look at God's laws and see His wisdom in proscribing rules of cleanliness to be followed that would have simply been commanded rituals to the people of the day, but of which we can now see the practical benefits. This teaches me a great deal about the nature of God and the wisdom of His commandments without presuming that the OT law is still binding today.

1. I have never once said that the OT Law is binding on us.

2. There's a difference in saying that the OT is binding on us and the OT Law is binding on us.

3. No one has answered me about Instrumental music and Tithing.

4. Where's the authority?

 

[Analgesic]

1. I have never once said that the OT Law is binding on us.

2. There's a difference in saying that the OT is binding on us and the OT Law is binding on us.

3. No one has answered me about Instrumental music and Tithing.

4. Where's the authority?

1. Fair enough. Could you please elaborate on your position?

2. Agreed.

3. I don't think they're held over from the OT.

4. For which?

 

[TCGreek]

1. Fair enough. Could you please elaborate on your position?

2. Agreed.

3. I don't think they're held over from the OT.

4. For which?

1. The OT is binding on us in principle, but not as a Law Book.

2. What then is our source of authority for instrumental music and tithing? Where do we turn, to the OT or the NT?

 

[Analgesic]

1. The OT is binding on us in principle, but not as a Law Book.

2. What then is our source of authority for instrumental music and tithing? Where do we turn, to the OT or the NT?

1. Since we agree that it would not be binding as a Law Book, on what grounds would it be binding in principle?

2. I'm not convinced that tithing is mandated in the NT, and I'm not sure what the concern is with instrumental music. I don't hold that the only forms of acceptable worship are those mentioned in scripture, so that's not an issue for me. But perhaps you were going somewhere else with it?

 

[psalms109:31]

tithing

2 Corinthians 9

Sowing Generously
6Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9As it is written:
"He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever."[Psalm 112:9]

 

[TCGreek]

1. Since we agree that it would not be binding as a Law Book, on what grounds would it be binding in principle?

2. I'm not convinced that tithing is mandated in the NT, and I'm not sure what the concern is with instrumental music. I don't hold that the only forms of acceptable worship are those mentioned in scripture, so that's not an issue for me. But perhaps you were going somewhere else with it?

1. On the grounds that it is the God-breathed word of God.

2. A person is still considered a fool for saying there is no God (Ps. 14:1).

3. The fear of the Lord is still the beginning of Wisdom (Prov. 9:10).

4. On position on tithing is not hold by many, as you know.

5. Again, your position on Instrumental music may not be an issue, but not every holds your position.

 

[Analgesic]

1. On the grounds that it is the God-breathed word of God.

2. A person is still considered a fool for saying there is no God (Ps. 14:1).

3. The fear of the Lord is still the beginning of Wisdom (Prov. 9:10).

4. On position on tithing is not hold by many, as you know.

5. Again, your position on Instrumental music may not be an issue, but not every hold your position.

1/2/3. I certainly agree that principles revealed in the OT remain true. But that does not mean that we know them to be true because they were revealed in the OT.

4. Indeed, but I think it's consistent with my personal position.

5. Agreed, but someone else will have to take that up.

 

[TCGreek]

1/2/3. I certainly agree that principles revealed in the OT remain true. But that does not mean that we know them to be true because they were revealed in the OT.

1. OT says of itself that it is true (Psa. 119:160; 19:7-10).

2. How then did the OT know the truth about God and what he required of them?

3. "Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar."
(Proverbs 30:5, 6)

4. Timothy was taught the truth about Scripture from the OT (2 Tim. 3:15).

5. What then is your point?

 

[AresMan]

1. The OT is binding on us in principle, but not as a Law Book.

Who gets to determine what the "principles" are? Often we find the specifics in the Law eliminated, "principles" dervied, new specifics derived from the "principles," then new laws misapplied upon the church that has nothing in context with the original Law that never had anything to do with the church.

2. What then is our source of authority for instrumental music and tithing? Where do we turn, to the OT or the NT?

For tithing, we go to both the OT and the NT, and find that tithing has not one iota--zilch, zero, nada--to do with the church. Both the OT and the NT demonstrate certain musical instruments: mainly psaltry (stringed instruments), tamborines, etc.

 

[TCGreek]

Who gets to determine what the "principles" are? Often we find the specifics in the Law eliminated, "principles" dervied, new specifics derived from the "principles," then new laws misapplied upon the church that has nothing in context with the original Law that never had anything to do with the church.

2. What then is our source of authority for instrumental music and tithing? Where do we turn, to the OT or the NT?

For tithing, we go to both the OT and the NT, and find that tithing has not one iota--zilch, zero, nada--to do with the church. Both the OT and the NT demonstrate certain musical instruments: mainly psaltry (stringed instruments), tamborines, etc.[/QUOTE]

1. Where is the NT passage for instrumental music?

2. Most arguments I have read for instrumental music is derived from the OT.
3. Unless I am missing some NT passage.

 

[AresMan]

1. Where is the NT passage for instrumental music?

2. Most arguments I have read for instrumental music is derived from the OT.
3. Unless I am missing some NT passage.

Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16. Look at the Greek.

 

[Bismarck]

I grew up hearing that the OT and the Old Covenant are the same and therefore not binding on us today? But over the years, I have come to realize:

1. The OT and the Old Covenant are not the same.

2. Rather, the Old Covenant is recorded in the OT.

3. And that the OT is binding on us today in principle (Rom 15:4).

4. So Paul is not referring to the NT primarily in 2 Tim 2:16, 17 but the OT primarily.

5. What do you believe about the OT?

You mean 2 Tim 3:16-17, yes? Just trying to be clear.