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Is the OT Binding on us Today?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCGreek, Jul 19, 2007.

  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. Eph 5:19:λαλουντες εαυτοις ψαλμοις και υμνοις και ωδαις πνευματικαις αδοντες και ψαλλοντες τη καρδια υμων τω κυριω

    a. translation: "Speaking to one another in psalms and hyms and spiritual songs, singing and making music in your hearts to the Lord" (TCG).

    b. Where is the evidence here for instrumental music?

    2. Col. 3:16: ο λογος του χριστου ενοικειτω εν υμιν πλουσιως εν παση σοφια διδασκοντες και νουθετουντες εαυτους ψαλμοις υμνοις ωδαις πνευματικαις εν χαριτι αδοντες εν ταις καρδιαις υμων τω θεω.

    a. translation: "Let the word of Christ dwell among you/in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to God" (TCG).

    b. Where is the evidence for instrumental music?
     
  2. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    Q: When you graduate from college, and you are no longer "under" your Professors, under their authority, beholden unto them for grades, degrees, etc...

    do you then forget everything they taught you?


    The legalistic Pharisees rebuked the Messiah for not strictly observing the Sabbath — ie, not observing the letter of the Law:

    At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."

    He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

    Matthew 12:1-8 (NIV)

    The similar version in Mark concludes with, 'Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"' (Mark 2:27).

    The Messiah goes on to explain this further:

    Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"

    He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

    Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.
    Matthew 12:9-14 (NIV)

    When you graduate from college, and you have your Ph.D., you are afforded more "respect", more "authority", more "leeway". When you are a lowly undergrad, you're like a lowly journeyman apprentice in a guild. You are to do what you're told, when and how you're told. You're not supposed to think on your own, b/c you don't actually know enough. If you try to "innovate", you're guaranteed to mess up. So your instructor holds you to the letter of the law, b/c then at least you won't break things, get hurt, etc.

    But when you are a "Master Carpenter", then if you want to try to do something a little different from rigid tradition, you're given the room to do so. It is "lawful" for you to "bend the rules" a wee tad, b/c after all you have the credentials to actually truthfully know that your way actually truthfully works. Hence, the High Priest can feed David or minister on the Sabbath. And the "spiritual High Priests" (true Believers, 1 Peter 2:5-9) can heal on the Sabbath, rescue animals and even eat if they really need to. There are "minor sins" that do not lead all the way "unto death" (1 John 5:16-17).

    But notice, "loving thy neighbor as thy self" (Lev 19:18) — by healing a leper on the Sabbath, say — is keeping the Law. It is keeping the true Spirit of the Law, even if not every single letter.

    But it is NOT license to kill, rape, etc etc etc. That is NOT keeping the Law in Spirit, and is hence unLawful.

    True Believers, as a "Holy Priesthood" (1 Pet 2:5-9), just like the actual High Priests of old (Matt 12:5 = Lev 24:5-8, Numbers 28:9-10, 1 Chr 9:32), can do things like "work" on the Sabbath, as long as it is truly Lawful by virtue of keeping and advancing the True Spirit of the Law.


    Summary:

    As shown by Matthew 12:12, the Messiah taught people how to observe and obey the Law. The Messiah told people to Obey the Law, and showed them how to Obey the Law. It is written, that YHWH-God wants mercy, not sacrifice (Hos 6:6), and justice, kindness and humility not 1000s of sacrificed rams (Mic 6:6-8). The words "sacrifice" embody all the occult and esoteric ritualism of the physical Temple. These are but a "shadow" of the True Spirit of the Law, which is:

    "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
    Mark 12:29-31

    And so:

    Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
    Colossians 2:16-19

    Please also see Hebrews 8:5 & 10:1.
     
    #42 Bismarck, Jul 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2007
  3. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Using instrumental music in worship and tithing are apples and oranges.

    The argument from the OT about musical instruments is that God approved musical instruments in worship in the OT, so there is nothing inherently unholy about using them in worship. The OT endorsed it, and the NT doesn't ban it. It seems permissible.

    Is it required though? Hardly. I see no NT reference requiring worship with instruments, so if you want to have a service without them, it can be equally God-honoring.

    Of tithing: Notwithstanding the fact that the OT tithe bears little similarity to the modern day "tithe," the NT does not at any point require any kind of tithe. There isn't anything unholy about the tithe (unless you are doing it for the wrong reasons), but I see no reason to require it, just as I see no reason to require instrumental worship.

    By all means, though, if you are unable to make it to Jerusalem to deposit your tithe, call me up and we can have a nice steak dinner with the money!

     
  4. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. I believe we need to make a distinction between the OT and the Law/Old Covenant. They are not the same.

    2. The Covenant God made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not the same Covenant He made with all Israel who came out of Egypt (Deut. 5:2-5).

    3. The Law/Old Covenant is recorded in the OT.

    4. To say that the OT is binding on us is only to say that its principles are binding on us.

    5. Principles that timeless truths.
     
  5. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    1 Corinthians 13
    Love
    1If I speak in the tongues[ Or languages] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[Some early manuscripts body that I may boast] but have not love, I gain nothing.

    What ever we do, do it for love of God and others don't let men put you under a yoke of law and principals. Under the Law we did things to save ourselves under grace we live our life for God that others will see our good deeds and praise our Father in heaven. If you want to praise God by intruments or what ever if you do it it out of love for Him and other see this joy. Let us praise God in what He has done through the intruments. Give out of love and what your heart desires if it isn't out of Love then it is worthless to God
     
    #45 psalms109:31, Jul 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2007
  6. Analgesic

    Analgesic New Member

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    I agree that the principles which are behind the OT are binding today, but I believe those principles can be properly discerned only in light of the NT.
     
  7. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. How did OT saints discern the truth of those principles when there was no NT?

    2. Timeless truths are timeless, whether in the time of Noah or Jude.
     
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