Is The Papacy Threatened?

[DHK]

Lets see the proof that Baptists existed LONG before the Reformation.

BTW, the Catholic Church opposed the teachings of these groups for the reasons given within my previous post.

The heresy is in the RCC. It always was.

I love this quote that was posted on www.reformedreader.org :

We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at the reformation, we were reformers before Luther and Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel under ground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents. Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor, I believe, any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man. We have ever been ready to suffer, as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bride of Christ to any alliance with Government, and we will never make the Church, although the Queen, the despot over the consciences of men.

—Charles H. Spurgeon
​

Christian history, in the First Century, was strictly and properly Baptist history, although the word "Baptist," as a distinctive appellation was not then known. How could it be? How was it possible to call any Christians Baptist Christians, when all were Baptists?" William Cathcart, The Baptist Encyclopedia, 1881, p. 286.

I'll go with C.H. Spurgeon every time over the RCC

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1505726&postcount=20

 

[lori4dogs]

So that is your 'proof'. Someones opinion. Just stating it is so over and over doesn't make it a historical fact.

You have no historical proof that Baptists existed before the Reformation, do you?

 

[DHK]

So that is your 'proof'. Someones opinion. Just stating it is so over and over doesn't make it a historical fact.

You have no historical proof that Baptists existed before the Reformation, do you?

Others have researched it well
Solid evidence of Baptist churches existing in Wales before the Reformation is there to be examined.

Tom, it is a lifelong study. I am not sure I can itemize every little detail. Working backwards, I take the history of baptistic churches in Wales. They formed the first two Baptist Churches in England, long before the so-called father of Baptist churches from the Reformation; Smythe, who was never a baptist and poured water on his head and called it baptism. Some of his followers did likewise.

There were many baptistic groups down through history, but greatly ignored because of sidelined concepts and doctrines that might be considered wrong.

Who did the Popish church persecute and kill during its reformation (Not the Reformation)? These victims were called heretics, and in some areas of profane history some of those heretical doctrines are mentioned. Those heretical doctrines happen to image baptistic beliefs.

All the apostles died for their beliefs except John, who died of old age. Many believers of that era had to go underground because of their fervent beliefs. The Romish church continued to grow and get most of the attention. The church fathers deviated in many viewpoints and continued to persecute these sidelined dissidents.

St. Patrick's doctrines were essentially baptistic during his early days of evangelization in Ireland. He was declared to be a Catholic after his death by the pope for religious and political reasons. This was before the baptists were formed in England. Where did his doctrines comes from?

I would not argue the points with anyone, but I am convinced. Its importance doesn't go any further than that, but it did confirm my firm views on baptist heritage.

Cheers,

Jim

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1501292&postcount=7

 

[dcorbett]

<<<Who did the Popish church persecute and kill during its reformation (Not the Reformation)? These victims were called heretics, and in some areas of profane history some of those heretical doctrines are mentioned. Those heretical doctrines happen to image baptistic beliefs.>>>

Yes, the REAL church went underground to protect the truth. These people refused to baptize their babies and insisted that believers be re-baptized once they came to the knowledge of the truth. This was a red flag for the papists. They called them heretics and burned them at the stake. Many were told that if they would acknowledge the pope as head of the church, they would be spared. Many died rather than accept the heretical papacy.

I follow the same beliefs and teachings that they followed. I am a true believer in saved by grace, not by works, one way to Heaven, through Jesus, the veil of the temple tore in two when He died, and I no longer need a priest - I believe in the priesthood of believers. I can go direct to God because of Jesus.

And we are ALL sinners. Yes, all priests, all bishops, all archbishops, all cardinals, all popes are sinners too, all need the saving grace of Jesus Christ. All Baptist preachers are sinners too. All need the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

First, give me the source. I don't know what you are referring to.
Second, no one is immune to sin.
Third, this type of sin among IFB churches is minuscule compared to what the RCC has been doing in this century and in the centuries gone by. That much can be documented. One only has to read commentaries from the 19th and 20th centuries and even before that--even as far back as the Reformation to find out of their horrible deeds. They are well documented.

I put the direct links on the post themseleves for you to look at. Just click on them.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Yes, the REAL church went underground to protect the truth.

i don't buy it for a second...Christ promised to protect His Church from the gates of Hell...the Church didn't have to hide underground...it's a lie...take the Orthodox Church...many are under Islamic rule and are persecuted to this very hour...are they in hiding? yet they survive...take the Russian Orthodox church under Communism...how many Orthodox Christians...Bishops, priests and laymen lost their lives (thousands!!!)? Yet the Russian Church survived without hiding underground...

where do people come up with this "underground" theory?

In XC
-

 

[Thinkingstuff]

i don't buy it for a second...Christ promised to protect His Church from the gates of Hell...the Church didn't have to hide underground...it's a lie...take the Orthodox Church...many are under Islamic rule and are persecuted to this very hour...are they in hiding? yet they survive...take the Russian Orthodox church under Communism...how many Orthodox Christians...Bishops, priests and laymen lost their lives (thousands!!!)? Yet the Russian Church survived without hiding underground...

where do people come up with this "underground" theory?

In XC
-

The official Russian religion thing always bothered me especially with incidents previous to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic where the Czar family was scandalized by Rasputin. I've had an Orthodox priest tell me that there are certain saints that have died but not decayed and smell like roses. I would like to see that!
However, I have to agree with you about the "underground theory". Reading history its clear that even "underground" groups have enough writen material to anounce their existance. You just don't have this with baptist as far back as the landmarkist suppose. On the other hand, there was an early emergence of baptist in Wales and prior to the reformation.

 

[Tom Bryant]

i don't buy it for a second...Christ promised to protect His Church from the gates of Hell...the Church didn't have to hide underground...it's a lie...take the Orthodox Church...many are under Islamic rule and are persecuted to this very hour...are they in hiding? yet they survive...take the Russian Orthodox church under Communism...how many Orthodox Christians...Bishops, priests and laymen lost their lives (thousands!!!)? Yet the Russian Church survived without hiding underground...

where do people come up with this "underground" theory?

In XC
-

Actually, they come up with it from the believers that actually lived through those times. In countries such as Albania, the underground church was the believing church.

In some communist countries, there was a limited freedom to have churches. In Romania, they were free to have church but they could only train a limited number of people in the government sanctioned seminary. This meant that many pastors were involved in 6-8 churches each week.

There were churches who operated above ground. Some of them were owned and pastored by gov't agents. Some were not. You really ought to read some of Brother Andrew's books.

 

[DHK]

i don't buy it for a second...Christ promised to protect His Church from the gates of Hell...the Church didn't have to hide underground...it's a lie...take the Orthodox Church...many are under Islamic rule and are persecuted to this very hour...are they in hiding? yet they survive...take the Russian Orthodox church under Communism...how many Orthodox Christians...Bishops, priests and laymen lost their lives (thousands!!!)? Yet the Russian Church survived without hiding underground...

where do people come up with this "underground" theory?

In XC
-

Tell me: During Hitler's reign where were the true believers (not Anglicans and Catholics)? Were they the ones throwing the Jews into the gas chambers? Were they the ones among the Jews--Jewish converts, being tortured with the Jews? Where were they?
Or, was there an underground church that you don't know of?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Actually, they come up with it from the believers that actually lived through those times. In countries such as Albania, the underground church was the believing church.

In some communist countries, there was a limited freedom to have churches. In Romania, they were free to have church but they could only train a limited number of people in the government sanctioned seminary. This meant that many pastors were involved in 6-8 churches each week.

There were churches who operated above ground. Some of them were owned and pastored by gov't agents. Some were not. You really ought to read some of Brother Andrew's books.

And see there exist literature proving the existance of such. And thus the discrepency. Where is the literature for the underground church in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, centuries?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Tell me: During Hitler's reign where were the true believers (not Anglicans and Catholics)? Were they the ones throwing the Jews into the gas chambers? Were they the ones among the Jews--Jewish converts, being tortured with the Jews? Where were they?
Or, was there an underground church that you don't know of?

And there is ample writen evidence of such proving their existence. How many have seen the Hidding Place? But we don't have such evidence during the first 3 centuries.

 

[targus]

Tell me: During Hitler's reign where were the true believers (not Anglicans and Catholics)? Were they the ones throwing the Jews into the gas chambers? Were they the ones among the Jews--Jewish converts, being tortured with the Jews? Where were they?
Or, was there an underground church that you don't know of?

There is ample records showing that many - not all - Baptists in Germany under Hitler supported what he was doing.

So yes, some Baptists were among the ones throwing Jews into the gas chambers.

 

[billwald]

At first the Lutheran Church in Germany supported Hitler. When they realized his true nature it was to late. And there was no great love for the Jews in the US. As a kid My Old Man got beat up by "Christian" kids every Easter.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Personally, I would think that Christians were hunted down during the 1st - 3rd centuries as ample proof that the church didn't operate openly everywhere. I know you're not doubting that persecution and martyrdom really happened. But wouldn't the corollary be that they didn't make it easy for Nero and the other Caesars to capture them?

If I am not mistaken the catacombs are filled with Christian symbols such as the fish that most historians take as places where believers met secretly and quietly.

 

[DHK]

I put the direct links on the post themseleves for you to look at. Just click on them.

The facts are plain and simple. Day after day after day: the vatican; the Pope, the cardinals, the bishops, the priests, the entire RCC are daily in the news for the horrible sexual crimes that they have and continue to commit. That is the evidence that we have, and all the evidence that we need. Here is another article from today:

MONTREAL - A small group of Quebec's "Duplessis Orphans" staged a Good Friday protest in front of Montreal's Notre-Dame Basilica, demanding an official apology from the Roman Catholic Church.
Since 2002, the orphans have gathered on the church steps on this day to make their case. But with the Vatican under fire amid a growing multinational abuse scandal, they have renewed hope their demands will be heard.
The Church "has been stonewalling the issue for some 30 years," said Carlo Tarini, a spokesman for the group.
"They've been maintaining a wall of silence. It's a scandal and needs to be denounced."
The orphans say they were physically and psychologically abused in church-run institutions during the reign of former premier Maurice Duplessis in the 1940s and '50s.
In 2001, many of them accepted a multi-million-dollar compensation offer from the provincial government.
The settlement worked out to an average of $25,000 per person.
But under the government's proposal, no blame was be laid on anyone for the orphans' treatment, and those who accepted the offer had to drop any further legal action.
Still, a number of Duplessis Orphans have refused to let the issue die and have continued to lobby for an apology from Catholic religious leaders, including Canada's top cardinal, Marc Ouellet.
"We see there may be an openness in the Vatican but it has to start in the local community, " said Lucien Landry.
"There were many, many orphans who were victims of pedophilia."
They group is not ruling out a collaboration with other alleged victims worldwide who are seeking some form of compensation or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.
"The problem is large, in a number of countries," Landry said. "We wondering: the fact this is in Ireland, the U.S., Canada, can we take this to The Hague? We want to examine this."

http://start.shaw.ca/start/enCA/News/NationalNewsArticle.htm?src=n040229A.xml


It never ends does it?
And don't speak about other denominations. You don't find the Baptists getting this kind of media attention. And for good reason. There is a history here. There is a problem here. There is a problem that the RCC, and even the Pope himself won't own up to.

 

[DHK]

And yet another article:

As the pope listened in a hushed St. Peter's Basilica, the Rev. Raniero Cantalamessa likened accusations against the pontiff and the Catholic church in sex abuse scandals in Europe, the U.S. and elsewhere to "collective violence" suffered by the Jews.​

Benedict, 82, looked weary as he sat near the central altar at the early evening prayer service.​

Cantalamessa, in his reflections for the pope on the Catholic church's most solemn day, said he was inspired by a letter from an unidentified Jewish friend who was upset by the "attacks" against Benedict.​

Jews "know from experience what it means to be victims of collective violence and also because of this they are quick to recognize the recurring symptoms," said Cantalamessa, a Franciscan priest.​

Quoting from the letter, Cantalamessa said his Jewish friend was following "with indignation the violent and concentric attacks against the church, the pope and all the faithful of the whole world."​

"The use of stereotypes, the passing from personal responsibility and guilt to a collective guilt remind me of the more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism," he said, quoting from the letter.​

The Rev. Federico Lombardi, a Vatican spokesman, later contacted The Associated Press and said Cantalamessa wasn't speaking as a Vatican official when he compared "attacks"' on the pope to "collective" violence against Jews.​

Such parallelism can "lead to misunderstandings and is not an official position of the Catholic church," Lombardi said, adding that Cantalamessa was speaking about a letter from a friend who lived through a "painful experience."​

Although the Vatican said Cantalamessa wasn't speaking as an official of the Holy See, its official daily newspaper L'Osservatore Romano ran the text of the homily in full.​

Benedict didn't speak after the homily but chanted prayers in a tired voice. He leaned up to remove a red cloth covering a tall crucifix, which was passed to him by an aide. He took off his shoes, knelt and prayed before the cross.​

Two hours later, Benedict, wearing a red cloak in the breezy night, knelt in prayer at the Colosseum as he watched the faithful carry a tall, slim wooden cross in Rome's traditional torchlit Via Crucis procession that commemorates Christ's suffering and death. Thousands of people clutching prayerbooks and candles crowded around the ancient arena.​

During the procession, "we meditated on his (Jesus') suffering and discovered how deep his love was and is for us," Benedict said in a brief remarks at the end of the 90-minute ceremony. Then he blessed the crowd, prompting cheers and some shouts of "Long live the pope."​

Victims say Benedict - both as a former archbishop of Munich and later as a Vatican cardinal directing the Holy See's policy on handling abuse cases - was part of a culture of coverup and confidentiality basically devised to protect church hierarchy.​

Cantalamessa's likening the accusations to the Holocaust rankled U.S. Jewish leaders.​

"Shame on Father Cantalamessa," said Elan Steinberg, vice-president of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors and their Descendants, in a statement. "The Vatican is entitled to defend itself, but the comparison with anti-Semitic persecution is offensive and unsustainable. We are sorely disappointed."​

Rabbi Gary Greenebaum, who said he recently had "cordial" talks at the Vatican with church and other Jewish leaders as part of efforts on both sides to improve Catholic-Jewish relations, sounded dismayed.​

"It's an unfortunate use of language to make this comparison, since the collective violence against the Jews resulted in the death of 6 million, while the collective violence spoken of here has not led to murder and destruction, but perhaps character assault," said Greenebaum, U.S. director of interreligious relations for the American Jewish Committee.​

German Jewish leader Stephan Kramer described Cantalamessa's remarks as unheard-of "insolence."​

"It is repulsive, obscene and most of all offensive toward all abuse victims as well as to all the victims of the Holocaust," said Kramer, general secretary of Germany's Central Council of Jews, in an interview with the AP in Berlin.​

Painful memories of the strained relations between the two religions were raised earlier in Benedict's papacy, when he favoured a revival of the pre-Vatican Council version of the Tridentine Mass, which includes a prayer for the conversion of Jews.​

Cantalamessa in his sermon said there was no need to dwell on the scandals. He referred to the sexual abuse of children by clergy, saying "unfortunately, not a few elements of the clergy are stained" by the violence. Still, he said, "there is sufficient talk outside of here."​

A vocal U.S.-based victims lobby, SNAP, reacted scathingly to the sermon.​

"It's heartbreaking to see yet another smart, high-ranking Vatican official making such callous remarks that insult both abuse victims and Jewish people," said David Clohessy of Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests. "It's morally wrong to equate actual physical violence and hatred against a large group of innocent people with mere public scrutiny of a small group of complicit officials."​

"The Catholic hierarchy has engaged in and still engages in widely documented, self-serving and ongoing coverups of devastating clergy sex crimes. That's why church records are being disclosed, predator priests are being exposed and Catholic officials feel besieged."​

The Rev. Thomas Reese, an expert on the Vatican based at Georgetown University in Washington, also criticized Cantalamessa's homily as "not helpful."​

"You know, you wish that people in the Vatican had at least some idea of how what they say will be perceived by an audience outside of the Vatican clergy," he said.​

Reese added that it's important to note that the Vatican spokesman distanced the pope from Cantalamessa's comments and that the homily did acknowledge children have been abused by priests.​

Cantalamessa, in a sharply worded pre-Christmas 2006 lecture before Benedict, denounced the "abominations" committed by the church's own pastors and ministers, suggesting it hold days of fasting and penance in countries with a high number of cases of sex abuse by clergy.​

While Cantalamessa delivered his ringing defence of the pontiff, the church in Benedict's native Germany made the unusually frank admission that it failed to help victims of clerical abuse because it wanted to protect its reputation.​

Archbishop Robert Zollitsch, head of the German bishops' conference, said clerics neglected helping victims because of a "wrongly intended desire to protect the church's reputation."​

​

http://start.shaw.ca/start/enCA/News/WorldNewsArticle.htm?src=w040299A.xml
​

 

[Zenas]

It never ends does it?
And don't speak about other denominations. You don't find the Baptists getting this kind of media attention. And for good reason. There is a history here. There is a problem here. There is a problem that the RCC, and even the Pope himself won't own up to.

It's a horrible stain on their reputation and to the secular world, it's a stain on Christianity, because when the secular world considers Christianity the largest Christian church in existence is the first thing that comes to mind. But we must remember the media is largely secular and the secular world hates the cause of Christ. They delight in publishing stories that embarrass Christ's church and this scandal has given them enough to write about for a long time.

Because the Catholic Church is so large, it is a particuarly easy target. But other churches are not immune to this kind of treatment by the press. In the area where I live the Catholic Church is small and marginalized and the Baptist Church is the 800 pound gorilla. We never have a local story about scandal in our Catholic parish because they are too small to create much scandal. But when a Baptist preacher gets arrested for tax evasion, or a Baptist church splits and the controversy winds up in court, or the local Baptist association shows up to oppose a local option initiative, the press is all over it. It will be headline news and for the same reason the Catholic scandal is getting so much worldwide press. The media hates the cause of Christ and will do everything it can to make His people look bad.

 

[lori4dogs]

It's a horrible stain on their reputation and to the secular world, it's a stain on Christianity, because when the secular world considers Christianity the largest Christian church in existence is the first thing that comes to mind. But we must remember the media is largely secular and the secular world hates the cause of Christ. They delight in publishing stories that embarrass Christ's church and this scandal has given them enough to write about for a long time.

Because the Catholic Church is so large, it is a particuarly easy target. But other churches are not immune to this kind of treatment by the press. In the area where I live the Catholic Church is small and marginalized and the Baptist Church is the 800 pound gorilla. We never have a local story about scandal in our Catholic parish because they are too small to create much scandal. But when a Baptist preacher gets arrested for tax evasion, or a Baptist church splits and the controversy winds up in court, or the local Baptist association shows up to oppose a local option initiative, the press is all over it. It will be headline news and for the same reason the Catholic scandal is getting so much worldwide press. The media hates the cause of Christ and will do everything it can to make His people look bad.

I believe this is an accurate and fair assessment of the situation.

 

[DHK]

I believe this is an accurate and fair assessment of the situation.

I keep answering this and you just don't get it!!!

Look at the RCC history, even to that Boston bishop.
The penalty for even the most heinous sex crimes, even the rape of children, is to be shipped to another parish where the priest or bishop can rape again and again and again. Then move again and do it all over again. It is horrible protection and has had the protection and the blessing of the pope in the past.

What happens in a Baptist Church scandal of such proportion? The man is caught; the police are called, the man is charged, the man goes to jail, he serves his sentence--maybe as much as 25 years, and then is never permitted to be a pastor again. What a difference! We treat it as a crime. The Catholic Church treats it as a joke to be swept under the rug! Open your eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DHK]

In the area where I live the Catholic Church is small and marginalized and the Baptist Church is the 800 pound gorilla. We never have a local story about scandal in our Catholic parish because they are too small to create much scandal. But when a Baptist preacher gets arrested for tax evasion, or a Baptist church splits and the controversy winds up in court, or the local Baptist association shows up to oppose a local option initiative, the press is all over it. It will be headline news and for the same reason the Catholic scandal is getting so much worldwide press. The media hates the cause of Christ and will do everything it can to make His people look bad.

So it is that way in your local area.
Look again. It is world wide in almost every continent with the RCC. Baptists are world-wide also. But you don't here about it world-wide.
So what if they are not as big. It has been hidden in the past. It has been secretive; but now it is coming to light. The sins of the past are being exposed. That is what is happening--in almost every part of this world.