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Is the pendulum swinging in a different direction?

Do you have a private, prayer language?

  • Yes ...

    Votes: 3 17.6%
  • No ...

    Votes: 14 82.4%
  • I do have a prayer language, but fear the wrath of others, so I keep it to myself!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    17
  • Poll closed .
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Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I show what it says. I explain that "now" is an adverb modifying a present tense verb. Please show me that I am wrong, that the Greek word translated "now" is not an adverb or that it not modifying the verb "abideth" (remains), or that "abideth" is not in the present tense.

I am awaiting your knowledgeable and erudite exposition of where I am wrong regarding the Greek grammar in question. Show that "now" is not an adverb. Or show that "abideth" (remains) is not the verb being modified, or that "abideth" (remains) is not in the present tense.
All I can show you is scholars with diplomas piled up as high as yours disagree with you.
 

rlvaughn

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am certainly not trying to create or even cause a problem, but I am curious as to how many of you may hold to having a prayer language?
I have a prayer language, but it is the same language I use in public and is not different in private. So I suppose my answer in context is "No."
 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I show what it says. I explain that "now" is an adverb modifying a present tense verb. Please show me that I am wrong, that the Greek word translated "now" is not an adverb or that it not modifying the verb "abideth" (remains), or that "abideth" is not in the present tense.

I am awaiting your knowledgeable and erudite exposition of where I am wrong regarding the Greek grammar in question. Show that "now" is not an adverb. Or show that "abideth" (remains) is not the verb being modified, or that "abideth" (remains) is not in the present tense.
TC, it seems you are missing the forest for the trees. [emoji41]
 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The genuine gift of tongues was operating in the church of Corinth. Things were s mess. People now use things being a mess to argue against tongues. Makes you think.
I look at it as a genuine attempt to discern what God gifted tongues are as opposed to pagan babbling. Corinth had both, but mostly it was paganism in the church, which Paul was correcting.
I do believe all the gifts are still given by God today, but much more judiciously than some would expect.
 
In my opinion the bible is very clear that tongues have ceased and we are only guided by the Spirit through His Word. I'm surprised there are Baptists out there who still believe in some form of gift of Tongues!
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I look at it as a genuine attempt to discern what God gifted tongues are as opposed to pagan babbling. Corinth had both, but mostly it was paganism in the church, which Paul was correcting.
I do believe all the gifts are still given by God today, but much more judiciously than some would expect.
Paul, in this passage, never admonished the Corinthian church for paganism or counterfeit gifts. He admonished them for misuse of the genuine gifts.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
All I can show you is scholars with diplomas piled up as high as yours disagree with you.
No, you can't. The best you can do is show the opinions of a bunch of people who are not evangelical but rather, for the most part sacerdotalist sacramentarianists.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
In my opinion the bible is very clear that tongues have ceased and we are only guided by the Spirit through His Word. I'm surprised there are Baptists out there who still believe in some form of gift of Tongues!
There aren't. :D
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No, you can't. The best you can do is show the opinions of a bunch of people who are not evangelical but rather, for the most part sacerdotalist sacramentarianists.
But they are considered the best linguistic scholars.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Bible is not at all clear unless you have some verses I do not have in my Bible.

God had told Israel as a nation this:isa28-
5 In that day shall the Lord of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.

7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.



6 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not
: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Apostolic sign gifts were in part a judgment upon 1st century Israel.
The Apostles ceased to be on this earth, so did the Apostolic sign gifts;
2cor12

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
I did, but you want it both ways. You said "When Paul said "Now" what part of that word didn't you understand?".
Text does not say "now, no new believers will be gifted."
You have to pay closer attention. When we receive Christ we receive the "all sufficient" Presence. Nothing need be added.
But they are considered the best linguistic scholars.
By whom? Maybe by you? And how did you make that determination? Can you read and understand Greek? If not, whose word are you taking for it?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
TC, you are forcing the canon upon Paul with nothing in the context of 1 Corinthians 13 to support your opinion. I have heard your opinion shared ad naseum my entire life, yet never seen a well crafted argument that fits the context of Paul's writing to Corinth. If you wish to hold an unsubstantiated theory that is your right.

Faith, hope and love do abide. They will always abide. Tongues and prophecy will cease when Jesus, the perfect one, returns.
Sorry M, I must dis agree here. Paul is contrasting partial knowledge with complete or perfect revelation. We know in part, we prophesy in part;
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The Apostles were promised to be guided into ALL TRUTH.....jn14, 15, 16,.....they were!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
After being slammed in another OP, by one member who vehemently disagreed with my believe in tongues, which for me is a prayer language, practiced in my prayer closet, I did some surfing on the net, and came across some interesting articles, in particular, articles about the movement within the SBC to hold to a prayer language, or tongues. In fact, the SBC has openly permitted its missionaries to practice tongues!

Here are some articles that should be considered before bestowing judgement of those who do have a prayer language or speak in tongues are judged and publicly crucified as heretics!

"Half of Southern Baptist pastors say they believe the Holy Spirit gives some people a special language to pray to God – what is known to some as private prayer language – a surprising new study found." Surprising Study Reveals Half Southern Baptist Pastors Believe in Gift of Tongues

Missionaries permitted to use prayer language - Southern Baptists Change Policy on Speaking in Tongues

"All spiritual gifts are divinely bestowed by our sovereign God. He can give the gifts as He pleases and to whom He pleases. No one can "develop" a gift or be "taught" how to exercise a gift. This gift must not be a test of fellowship, but it must be restricted and regulated by Scripture under the authority of the ministers of the church. It should not be a reason for disfellowship unless the one practicing the gift uses it in a way that promotes confusion and disharmony." The Baptist Press - DOCTRINE: The Bible & tongues

I am certainly not trying to create or even cause a problem, but I am curious as to how many of you may hold to having a prayer language? I think the times are a changing, and so are views! Still, one thing I would never do, is say you must believe in such-and-such gift, or receive such-and-such gift to be a Christian! I think what gifts we have been given are given of God, and that gifts should remain something between the believer and the Father! If the believer honestly feels they have a certain gift that was once practiced in the Bible, then so be it! It is not up to others t shame them, shun them or cast them out! And the article from the Baptist Press is actually the way I would hope all of us would be towards others!
The practice of tongues is foreign to my experience and I have a couple of questions (on a serious, not a sarcastic, note).

When you pray in a “prayer language”, do you understand what is prayed? If so, what benefit is the language? If not, what benefit is the prayer?
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
TC, you are forcing the canon upon Paul with nothing in the context of 1 Corinthians 13 to support your opinion.
On the contrary. The context couldn't be more clear. Paul is talking about "tongues," "prophecy." and "knowledge" as spiritual gifts. That is the context.

"Tongues" were a revelatory gift which revealed "the wonderful works of God" to the hearers (Acts 2:11).

"Prophecy" was a revelatory gift which revealed the future (hundreds of verses).

"Knowledge" was a revelatory gift which revealed knowledge which was learned but revealed directly from God. (Matthew 16:17.)

So, from the immediately preceding context we see that Paul is talking about revelation. Revelation in the form of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge.

As verse 10 does not have a subject, we have to proved the understood subject from the immediately preceding context, which is "revelation."

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when the complete has come, then the partial will be done away with.

"But when the complete (understood subject: revelation) has come, then the partial (understood predicate nominative: revelation) (in the form of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge) will be done away with."

"But when the complete (revelation) has come, then the partial (revelation) will be done away with."

What IS lacking from the context is your insistence that the subject is "Christ" and His return, which is never mentioned in the immediate preceding context, nor in the preceding context at all!
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Are you insinuating that English is the language of choice for God? He confounded languages of man. And not all of us speak English!
God always understood Japanese when I prayed in it. The Bible says nothing about an "unknown" tongue, a language the praying saint could not understand. The word "unknown" is not in the original Greek but added by the KJV translators, unfortunately.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Again, I trust in what Paul said in Romans 8:26 - "And likewise also the Spirit helps our weakness; for we know not how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself makes entreaty for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." Jubilee Bible 2000
You are misinterpreting this passage, as tongues speakers usually do. It says nothing about us praying in tongues or even our own language. It is for when we cannot pray, because it says, "for we know not what we should pray for as we ought."

I have experienced this on the mission field of Japan (Satan's territory for sure) when I had no idea what to pray, so was simply sitting there, but then sensed the Holy Spirit praying for me. And that's all I care to say about that experience on this forum.

So this verse is not about tongues at all, and it is certainly not about a prayer language. It specifically says that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us. Now in intercessory prayer, we do not pray for what the object of our prayer is, we pray for what we believe the will of God to be. For example, when I pray for a Buddhist relative I have to be saved, I am not at all praying in accordance with that person's wishes. They have no desire at all to be saved. Instead, I am praying for what God wants for that person. Just so, the intercession of the Holy Spirit is praying for God's will for us when we have no idea what that is and how to pray for it.
 
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