Is the pendulum swinging in a different direction?

[TCassidy]

Indeed, context, context, context...and the canon was not even established or considered by Paul in this context. Therefore your theory must be wrong.

The context is revelation. Paul says there are two aspects of the revelation. The complete revelation (yet future at the time of Paul's writing) and the partial revelation (in use at the time of Paul's writing).

I am still waiting for you to show me that νυνι is not an adverb modifying the present tense verb μενει.

 

[Reynolds]

The perfect revelation is not the canon of scripture as Paul was not addressing textual revelation. The perfect revelation is Jesus himself.
The canon is a reach at best.

A far reach. Though it contains no error, our understanding will be through a glass dimly until we meet Jesus face to face.

 

[Reynolds]

Their babblings were just saying stupid things? Should we invite them to the Baptist Board? They would have a lot of company!

Maybe one day you can work on that greatest gift mentioned in the passage.

 

[Iconoclast]

The context is revelation. Paul says there are two aspects of the revelation. The complete revelation (yet future at the time of Paul's writing) and the partial revelation (in use at the time of Paul's writing).

I am still waiting for you to show me that νυνι is not an adverb modifying the present tense verb μενει.

Posting in tongues again eh!

 

[JonC]

Posting in tongues again eh!

Context, brother, context.

 

[TCassidy]

Posting in tongues again eh!

What is ironic is the the tongues speakers are experts on every tongue except the one God used to inspire His word!

 

[MennoSota]

The context is revelation. Paul says there are two aspects of the revelation. The complete revelation (yet future at the time of Paul's writing) and the partial revelation (in use at the time of Paul's writing).

I am still waiting for you to show me that νυνι is not an adverb modifying the present tense verb μενει.

I have no need to show you anything regarding grammar structure. The context of the passage provides nothing that indicates Paul is talking about a canon of scripture. The revelation that is perfect is Jesus. That makes the most common sense.
You can choose to hold your view, but I think it is the incorrect interpretation of this passage.

 

[TCassidy]

Maybe one day you can work on that greatest gift mentioned in the passage.

Oh, I love the people on the forum who say stupid things. That is why I am here. Because I love them enough to want to help them understand God's word better, and by better understanding God's come to a better understanding of what God wants for their lives.

But it was a nice try at a personal attack. Keep trying. Practice makes perfect.

 

[TCassidy]

I have no need to show you anything regarding grammar structure.

Of course not. Because you can't. If you could it would disprove your silly notion about context.

 

[Iconoclast]

Bible Dictionaries
Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
Tongue
γλῶσσα

(Strong's #1100 — Noun Feminine — glossa — gloce'-sah )
is used of (1) the "tongues ... like as of fire" which appeared at Pentecost; (2) "the tongue," as an organ of speech, e.g., Mark 7:33 ; Romans 3:13 ; 14:11 ;1 Corinthians 14:9 ; Philippians 2:11 ; James 1:26 ; 3:5,6,8 ; 1 Peter 3:10 ; 1 John 3:18 ; Revelation 16:10 ; (3) (a) "a language," coupled with phule, "a tribe," laos, "a people," ethnos, "a nation," seven times in the Apocalypse,Revelation 5:9 ; 7:9 ; 10:11 ; 11:9 ; 13:7 ; 14:6 ; 17:15 ; (b) "the supernatural gift of speaking in another language without its having been learnt;" in Acts 2:4-13 the circumstances are recorded from the viewpoint of the hearers; to those in whose language the utterances were made it appeared as a supernatural phenomenon; to others, the stammering of drunkards; what was uttered was not addressed primarily to the audience but consisted in recounting "the mighty works of God;" cp. Acts 2:46 ; in 1Cor., chapters 12 and 14, the use of the gift of "tongues" is mentioned as exercised in the gatherings of local churches; 1 Corinthians 12:10 speaks of the gift in general terms, and couples with it that of "the interpretation of tongues;" chapt. 14 gives instruction concerning the use of the gift, the paramount object being the edification of the church; unless the "tongue" was interpreted the speaker would speak "not unto men, but unto God," 1 Corinthians 14:2 ; he would edify himself alone, 1 Corinthians 14:4 , unless he interpreted, 1 Corinthians 14:5 , in which case his interpretation would be of the same value as the superior gift of prophesying, as he would edify the church, 1 Corinthians 14:4-6 ; he must pray that he may interpret, 1 Corinthians 14:13 ; if there were no interpreter, he must keep silence, 1 Corinthians 14:28 , for all things were to be done "unto edifying," 1 Corinthians 14:26 . "If I come ... speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you," says the Apostle (expressing the great object in all oral ministry), "unless I speak to you either by way of revelation, or of knowledge, or of prophesying, or of teaching?" (1 Corinthians 14:6 ). "Tongues" were for a sign, not to believers, but to unbelievers, 1 Corinthians 14:22 , and especially to unbelieving Jews (see 1 Corinthians 14:21 ): cp. the passages in the Acts.

There is no evidence of the continuance of this gift after apostolic times nor indeed in the later times of the Apostles themselves; this provides confirmation of the fulfillment in this way of 1 Corinthians 13:8 , that this gift would cease in the churches, just as would "prophecies" and "knowledge" in the sense of knowledge received by immediate supernatural power (cp. 1 Corinthians 14:6 ). The completion of the Holy Scriptures has provided the churches with all that is necessary for individual and collective guidance, instruction, and edification.

 

[MennoSota]

Oh, I love the people on the forum who say stupid things. That is why I am here. Because I love them enough to want to help them understand God's word better, and by better understanding God's come to a better understanding of what God wants for their lives.

But it was a nice try at a personal attack. Keep trying. Practice makes perfect.

Do you imagine that you know God and His word better because you read greek? Does God think you know Him better because you read greek? Perhaps it is you who needs help as well.

 

[MennoSota]

Of course not. Because you can't. If you could it would disprove your silly notion about context.

The problem with your contention is that Bible scholars and preachers disagree with you. For example, John Piper and Tom Schreiner hold the view I have shared. Frankly, I respect their view over yours.

 

[MennoSota]

Bible Dictionaries
Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
Tongue
γλῶσσα

(Strong's #1100 — Noun Feminine — glossa — gloce'-sah )
is used of (1) the "tongues ... like as of fire" which appeared at Pentecost; (2) "the tongue," as an organ of speech, e.g., Mark 7:33 ; Romans 3:13 ; 14:11 ;1 Corinthians 14:9 ; Philippians 2:11 ; James 1:26 ; 3:5,6,8 ; 1 Peter 3:10 ; 1 John 3:18 ; Revelation 16:10 ; (3) (a) "a language," coupled with phule, "a tribe," laos, "a people," ethnos, "a nation," seven times in the Apocalypse,Revelation 5:9 ; 7:9 ; 10:11 ; 11:9 ; 13:7 ; 14:6 ; 17:15 ; (b) "the supernatural gift of speaking in another language without its having been learnt;" in Acts 2:4-13 the circumstances are recorded from the viewpoint of the hearers; to those in whose language the utterances were made it appeared as a supernatural phenomenon; to others, the stammering of drunkards; what was uttered was not addressed primarily to the audience but consisted in recounting "the mighty works of God;" cp. Acts 2:46 ; in 1Cor., chapters 12 and 14, the use of the gift of "tongues" is mentioned as exercised in the gatherings of local churches; 1 Corinthians 12:10 speaks of the gift in general terms, and couples with it that of "the interpretation of tongues;" chapt. 14 gives instruction concerning the use of the gift, the paramount object being the edification of the church; unless the "tongue" was interpreted the speaker would speak "not unto men, but unto God," 1 Corinthians 14:2 ; he would edify himself alone, 1 Corinthians 14:4 , unless he interpreted, 1 Corinthians 14:5 , in which case his interpretation would be of the same value as the superior gift of prophesying, as he would edify the church, 1 Corinthians 14:4-6 ; he must pray that he may interpret, 1 Corinthians 14:13 ; if there were no interpreter, he must keep silence, 1 Corinthians 14:28 , for all things were to be done "unto edifying," 1 Corinthians 14:26 . "If I come ... speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you," says the Apostle (expressing the great object in all oral ministry), "unless I speak to you either by way of revelation, or of knowledge, or of prophesying, or of teaching?" (1 Corinthians 14:6 ). "Tongues" were for a sign, not to believers, but to unbelievers, 1 Corinthians 14:22 , and especially to unbelieving Jews (see 1 Corinthians 14:21 ): cp. the passages in the Acts.

There is no evidence of the continuance of this gift after apostolic times nor indeed in the later times of the Apostles themselves; this provides confirmation of the fulfillment in this way of 1 Corinthians 13:8 , that this gift would cease in the churches, just as would "prophecies" and "knowledge" in the sense of knowledge received by immediate supernatural power (cp. 1 Corinthians 14:6 ). The completion of the Holy Scriptures has provided the churches with all that is necessary for individual and collective guidance, instruction, and edification.

This is interesting in theory, but there are millions of unreached people's in this world who do not have access to the Bible. There is still need for all the gifts until Jesus returns.

 

[TCassidy]

Do you imagine that you know God and His word better because you read greek?

I know Greek better because I read Greek.

Does God think you know Him better because you read greek?

God thinks I know Greek because I read Greek.

Perhaps it is you who needs help as well.

No, I already read it pretty well.

The problem with your contention is that Bible scholars and preachers disagree with you.

Not the good ones.

For example, John Piper and Tom Schreiner hold the view I have shared.

Who?

Frankly, I respect their view over yours.

You have the right to be wrong. And I respect what God said over what men say.

There is still need for all the gifts until Jesus returns.

So Jesus is not all sufficient? Have you become a Pelagian? The bible is not profitable for, doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. We need babbling and jibber jabber too?

You still haven't answered my question. As you can't understand what you are saying how do you know what you are saying is true? You could be preaching the gospel of works for all you know.

And I can't help but notice nobody has answered Jon's question about so called "prayer tongues."

When you pray in a “prayer language”, do you understand what is prayed? If so, what benefit is the language? If not, what benefit is the prayer?

 

[Iconoclast]

A Greek scholar friend of mine just shot me a note about Chrysostom's (347-407) comments on 1 Cor. 12-14. He plainly stated that it was difficult to teach on tongues since that ended long ago.

So, in the 2-5th centuries there were no tongues speaking churches. Either the early Christians knew better than the modern Pentecostals and Charismatics, or somehow the Church has been messed up for 19 centuries, missing out on tongues.

If anyone doubts what I'm saying, here's a great article on it: A Critical Look at Tongues and Montanism. The author makes the great point that Eusebius does not use the term glossa, which is the term used in the Bible. So very obviously--to me--the babblings of the Montanists was not like modern tongues, but just speaking stupid things.

Thanks for the link...

 

[Iconoclast]

This is interesting in theory, but there are millions of unreached people's in this world who do not have access to the Bible. There is still need for all the gifts until Jesus returns.

M,
Why is that??? If we have a completed word and The Spirit who gave us the word and allows us to understand it, why would anything else be needed?
First century Israel was to be rejected for their Covenant breaking, Deut 28-33...the curses were coming upon them and as a consequence, the foundational teaching of the Apostles and prophets was being given and confirmed.Eph2:20.

We cannot live in the land of make believe...oral roberts claimed he saw a 900ft Jesus...
I know that is not what you are saying, but you are reluctant to say that God has closed off these avenues of new revelation. He has....if you notice these anecdotal stories of sign gifts, the dead being physically raised are always....out there somewhere on the mission fields.
When I ask missionaries who are out there...they only mention demonic activity....and to a person say the pentecostals hinder the work.

 

[Iconoclast]

The problem with your contention is that Bible scholars and preachers disagree with you. For example, John Piper and Tom Schreiner hold the view I have shared. Frankly, I respect their view over yours.

I reject Piper and Grudem outright.....Piper just leaves the door open which as far as I can tell lets people be subject to chasing nonsensical false fleshly make believe.
youtube video of people barking like dogs at the toronto blessing - Bing video

youtube video of people barking like dogs at the toronto blessing - Bing video

youtube video of people barking like dogs at the toronto blessing - Bing video


"He himself does not claim any such gift.
It is safe to say...well God can do what he wants to do as if we could limit Him by not leaving an open door.
God has already declared we are not to add or take away from that which was once for all delievered to the saints.

 

[MennoSota]

I know Greek better because I read Greek.

God thinks I know Greek because I read Greek.

No, I already read it pretty well.

Not the good ones.

Who?

You have the right to be wrong. And I respect what God said over what men say.

So Jesus is not all sufficient? Have you become a Pelagian? The bible is not profitable for, doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. We need babbling and jibber jabber too?

You still haven't answered my question. As you can't understand what you are saying how do you know what you are saying is true? You could be preaching the gospel of works for all you know.

And I can't help but notice nobody has answered Jon's question about so called "prayer tongues."

TC, you are twisting words and making things up as you go in this post.
I respect your right to think Paul was talking about the canon in chapter 13. I consider your view to be incorrect and I accept the views of others who are equal or superior to you in understanding greek and intellectual knowledge.
At this point you are coming across as prideful.

 

[MennoSota]

M,
Why is that??? If we have a completed word and The Spirit who gave us the word and allows us to understand it, why would anything else be needed?
First century Israel was to be rejected for their Covenant breaking, Deut 28-33...the curses were coming upon them and as a consequence, the foundational teaching of the Apostles and prophets was being given and confirmed.Eph2:20.

We cannot live in the land of make believe...oral roberts claimed he saw a 900ft Jesus...
I know that is not what you are saying, but you are reluctant to say that God has closed off these avenues of new revelation. He has....if you notice these anecdotal stories of sign gifts, the dead being physically raised are always....out there somewhere on the mission fields.
When I ask missionaries who are out there...they only mention demonic activity....and to a person say the pentecostals hinder the work.

Do those who have never had the Bible have the complete word of God in their hands? Can a missionary get to them and share God's complete word if they don't know the language and don't have a Bible in that language?
I cannot dismiss God's Spirit using the gift of tongues to tell them of Jesus nor can I dismiss God using dreams to give them a knowledge of His Son. To put chains on God's Spirit because I personally have added an interpretation to Paul's writing that he doesn't express is something I refuse to do.
What I accept is that Jesus is perfect and when he returns we will no longer need the gifts of tongues and prophecy.

 

[Iconoclast]

youtube video of people barking like dogs at the toronto blessing - Bing video