Yes, it does. We don't need the gift of tongues. We have language schools.
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Is the pendulum swinging in a different direction?
- Thread starter righteousdude2
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No they don't.
Hello Dude,
Hope all is well with you also.
The thing is Dude....I could put up dozens of such videos....and I have spoken with many who swear by them that it is the "annointing"
. We both know it is not
Every person who wants to believe they have a special prayer tongue does try and distance themselves from such carnal vulgar displays...I get that
However....then we usually hear something like this.....if there is a counterfeit there must be a true
yes indeed...the true happened in Apostolic times and was foundational...the false is happening in our day...
Well Dude...you can ignore me if you have to, but i do not censor anyone so i will read some of what is posted even if i do not comment all the time. You had to know I would jump in on this as i see it as a delusion and harmful.
I believe this is not of God.
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This is very simple given that the genesis of modern supernatural gifts is form the Azusa Street Revival. I only had to do one thing to forever forsake the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements and all they held dear. I read up on Azusa Street on wikipedia and its major leaders and remember the verses (Matthew 7:15-24). The reason is simple, all things Pentecostal and Charismaticism began at Azusa Street and spread to the world, I know this from church history. Here are some important wikis:
Azusa Street Revival - Wikipedia
William J. Seymour - Wikipedia
Charles Fox Parham - Wikipedia
Through these you can find all the founding leaders through the wiki links. As you check these wikis against what the bible teaches, you'll find that this movement is against a variety of biblical commands.
I also find it very odd that the two or three testimonies about the dangers of Charismaticism and Pentecostalism that have shown up in this thread have been ignored. Those were always the most powerful things in my life as a Charismatic that convicted me that something was wrong.
Azusa Street Revival - Wikipedia
William J. Seymour - Wikipedia
Charles Fox Parham - Wikipedia
Through these you can find all the founding leaders through the wiki links. As you check these wikis against what the bible teaches, you'll find that this movement is against a variety of biblical commands.
I also find it very odd that the two or three testimonies about the dangers of Charismaticism and Pentecostalism that have shown up in this thread have been ignored. Those were always the most powerful things in my life as a Charismatic that convicted me that something was wrong.
I find it interesting that tongues are limited to missionaries in foreign lands with no supporting evidence other than the testimony of the missionary. Even if that is the only exception the gift still needs to operate biblically. Just call me a convinced skeptic.
dude
from precept austin;
mans 8:26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; (NASB: Lockman)
Greek: hosautos de kai to pneuma sunantilambanetai (3SPMI) te astheneia hemon; to gar tiproseuchometha kaqo dei (2SPAI) ouk oidamen, (3SRAI) alla auto to pneuma huperentugchanei (3SPAI)stenagmois alaletois;
Amplified: So too the [Holy] Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
NLT: And the Holy Spirit helps us in our distress. For we don't even know what we should pray for, nor how we should pray. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. (NLT - Tyndale House)
Phillips: The Spirit of God not only maintains this hope within us, but helps us in our present limitations. For example, we do not know how to pray worthily as sons of God, but his Spirit within us is actually praying for us in those agonising longings which never find words. (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: And in like manner also the Spirit lends us a helping hand with reference to our weakness, for the particular. thing that we should pray for according to what is necessary in the nature of the case, we do not know with an absolute knowledge; but the Spirit himself comes to our rescue by interceding with unutterable groanings. (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: And, in like manner also, the Spirit doth help our weaknesses; for, what we may pray for, as it behoveth us, we have not known, but the Spirit himself doth make intercession for us with groanings unutterable,
BUT THE SPIRIT HIMSELF INTERCEDES FOR US WITH GROANINGS TOO DEEP FOR WORDS: alla auto to pneuma huperentugchanei (3SPAI) stenagmois alaletois: (Ro 8:15; Psalms 10:17; Zechariah 12:10; Matthew 10:20; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18; 6:18; Jude 1:20,21) (Ro 7:24; Psalms 6:3,9; 42:1-5; 55:1,2; 69:3; 77:1, 2, 3;88:1, 2, 3; 102:5,20; 119:81; Psalms 119:82; 143:4, 5, 6, 7; Luke 22:44; 2Corinthians 5:2,4; 12:8)
Stedman;
I have always been amazed at people who emphasize the gift of tongues and take this verse as proof that the Spirit prays in tongues through us. This verse could not mean that. Paul tells us that this praying of the Spirit is done with groans which words cannot express. Now, tongues are words, words of other languages. If this referred to the gift of tongues, it would merely be putting into other languages the feelings of our heart. But this passage has nothing to do with that. This describes the groans of the Spirit within, so deep and so impossible to verbalize that we cannot say anything at all. We just feel deeply. The apostle says that when that happens, it is the Spirit of God who is praying. The Spirit is putting our prayer into a form which God the Father, who searches the heart, understands. The Spirit is asking for something concerning the situation that we are trying to pray about (Romans 8:18-28: Agony & Ecstasy)
Here is a helpful note from Believer's Study Bible:
Frequently a disciple confronts difficulties so insurmountable that he cannot even approach prayer skillfully. He knows that he must approach God, but he has already said all that he knows to say to God. In those instances, the promise is that the Holy Spirit "makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." Some have interpreted this verse as arguing for "prayer tongues." However, close examination reveals that the believer is not speaking at all. The Holy Spirit is making the intercession. Moreover, the precise words in Greek are stenagmois alaletois, "groanings which cannot be uttered." Literally, the words might be rendered "unspoken sighings." In other words, the communication is nonverbal, involving no speaking of any kind. (Criswell, W A. Believer's Study Bible: New King James Version. 1991. Thomas Nelson)
from precept austin;
mans 8:26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; (NASB: Lockman)
Greek: hosautos de kai to pneuma sunantilambanetai (3SPMI) te astheneia hemon; to gar tiproseuchometha kaqo dei (2SPAI) ouk oidamen, (3SRAI) alla auto to pneuma huperentugchanei (3SPAI)stenagmois alaletois;
Amplified: So too the [Holy] Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
NLT: And the Holy Spirit helps us in our distress. For we don't even know what we should pray for, nor how we should pray. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. (NLT - Tyndale House)
Phillips: The Spirit of God not only maintains this hope within us, but helps us in our present limitations. For example, we do not know how to pray worthily as sons of God, but his Spirit within us is actually praying for us in those agonising longings which never find words. (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: And in like manner also the Spirit lends us a helping hand with reference to our weakness, for the particular. thing that we should pray for according to what is necessary in the nature of the case, we do not know with an absolute knowledge; but the Spirit himself comes to our rescue by interceding with unutterable groanings. (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: And, in like manner also, the Spirit doth help our weaknesses; for, what we may pray for, as it behoveth us, we have not known, but the Spirit himself doth make intercession for us with groanings unutterable,
BUT THE SPIRIT HIMSELF INTERCEDES FOR US WITH GROANINGS TOO DEEP FOR WORDS: alla auto to pneuma huperentugchanei (3SPAI) stenagmois alaletois: (Ro 8:15; Psalms 10:17; Zechariah 12:10; Matthew 10:20; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18; 6:18; Jude 1:20,21) (Ro 7:24; Psalms 6:3,9; 42:1-5; 55:1,2; 69:3; 77:1, 2, 3;88:1, 2, 3; 102:5,20; 119:81; Psalms 119:82; 143:4, 5, 6, 7; Luke 22:44; 2Corinthians 5:2,4; 12:8)
Stedman;
I have always been amazed at people who emphasize the gift of tongues and take this verse as proof that the Spirit prays in tongues through us. This verse could not mean that. Paul tells us that this praying of the Spirit is done with groans which words cannot express. Now, tongues are words, words of other languages. If this referred to the gift of tongues, it would merely be putting into other languages the feelings of our heart. But this passage has nothing to do with that. This describes the groans of the Spirit within, so deep and so impossible to verbalize that we cannot say anything at all. We just feel deeply. The apostle says that when that happens, it is the Spirit of God who is praying. The Spirit is putting our prayer into a form which God the Father, who searches the heart, understands. The Spirit is asking for something concerning the situation that we are trying to pray about (Romans 8:18-28: Agony & Ecstasy)
Here is a helpful note from Believer's Study Bible:
Frequently a disciple confronts difficulties so insurmountable that he cannot even approach prayer skillfully. He knows that he must approach God, but he has already said all that he knows to say to God. In those instances, the promise is that the Holy Spirit "makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." Some have interpreted this verse as arguing for "prayer tongues." However, close examination reveals that the believer is not speaking at all. The Holy Spirit is making the intercession. Moreover, the precise words in Greek are stenagmois alaletois, "groanings which cannot be uttered." Literally, the words might be rendered "unspoken sighings." In other words, the communication is nonverbal, involving no speaking of any kind. (Criswell, W A. Believer's Study Bible: New King James Version. 1991. Thomas Nelson)
Good for you telling us what God needs and doesn't need. I think I will let God decide if He wants to give a gift of tongues to someone or not.
Dude,
Here is a bit more;
The verse goes on to say "with groanings too deep for words." Oh, the many views on this verse. Some say this is speaking in tongues. But in no way is this some mystical prayer language that a believer says he has. The word "groanings" is that which no language of any kind could ever express. These groanings are the communication between the Spirit and the Father.
newell;
There are some who say Paul by groanings Paul is referring to a special manifestation of the Spirit, such as tongues or ecstatic cries that come from the heart, but that this is not what he is teaching. In fact, he specifically says that the praying of the Spirit is too deep for words or utterance and so is unuttered and cannot be expressed
Here is a bit more;
The verse goes on to say "with groanings too deep for words." Oh, the many views on this verse. Some say this is speaking in tongues. But in no way is this some mystical prayer language that a believer says he has. The word "groanings" is that which no language of any kind could ever express. These groanings are the communication between the Spirit and the Father.
newell;
There are some who say Paul by groanings Paul is referring to a special manifestation of the Spirit, such as tongues or ecstatic cries that come from the heart, but that this is not what he is teaching. In fact, he specifically says that the praying of the Spirit is too deep for words or utterance and so is unuttered and cannot be expressed
Not in your world, but God doesn't make His choices around your experiences.
No Reformer or Puritan or anyone claims any such gift or manifestation.
The false happened in Apostolic days as well.Hello Dude,
Hope all is well with you also.
The thing is Dude....I could put up dozens of such videos....and I have spoken with many who swear by them that it is the "annointing"
Every person who wants to believe they have a special prayer tongue does try and distance themselves from such carnal vulgar displays...I get that
However....then we usually hear something like this.....if there is a counterfeit there must be a true
yes indeed...the true happened in Apostolic times and was foundational...the false is happening in our day...
Well Dude...you can ignore me if you have to, but i do not censor anyone so i will read some of what is posted even if i do not comment all the time. You had to know I would jump in on this as i see it as a delusion and harmful.
I believe this is not of God.
I, speaking only for me, do not speak in tongues nor do I have any compulsion to ask God for the gift. What I see in regard to people making unintelligent sounds is not biblically supported. However, I see no biblical evidence to say they have ceased entirely. Such a claim would be based on personal experience, not based upon biblical proof. Thus, I will not make a bold statement that tongues have ceased. I will say that any claim of tongues must be weighed against scripture. Ultimately, is God glorified in the use of a gift. Any gift given by God is for His glory and His glory alone.
How did tongues operate in the 4 instances we see them in the book of the Acts of the Apostles? Was each instance the same or different? Was tongues the norm or used by God for a specific purpose?
I think the tongues found in Corinth were not stemming from a healthy walk with God, but from a selfish connection to paganism being brought into the church. Corinth, as Pastor Gardner once said, was a catastrophe.
I have no problem with people praying in tongues. Nor do I have a problem with people praying lying down prostrate on the floor. Or praying looking to the sky. I don’t even have a problem with someone literally going into their closet to pray.
I believe that our experience of God may be unique and subjective – but the God we are experiencing is immutable and objective. The man praying on his knee is no more or less experiencing God because of his physical position than the woman praying as she drives down the road.
If praying in tongues is legitimate, and I believe it may be, then it is no more or less than anyone else experiencing the intercession of the Holy Spirit without such expression. It is simply not my business how a man or woman expresses themselves to God in the privacy of their own home.
I believe that our experience of God may be unique and subjective – but the God we are experiencing is immutable and objective. The man praying on his knee is no more or less experiencing God because of his physical position than the woman praying as she drives down the road.
If praying in tongues is legitimate, and I believe it may be, then it is no more or less than anyone else experiencing the intercession of the Holy Spirit without such expression. It is simply not my business how a man or woman expresses themselves to God in the privacy of their own home.
It is so clear that you have lost the argument, and you know you have lost. You begin to tell even more untruths. I didn't say anything about what God needs. I said "We need." Shame on you.
God honors His word. He will not violate it.
No, He makes His choices around His word, which He never violates.
TC, You are very good at pretzel making.
He is the Perfect Word and when He returns the perfect will come. One day tongues and prophecy will cease. It just isn't at the time the canon of scripture was established.
Not at all ,all the historic confessions of faith were clear that the gifts had ceased and based it on scripture.
There are no Apostles or prophets on earth today....none
The Apostles were to be guided into all truth...not some...that promise was fulfilled...we have been given all that pertains to life and godliness...in scripture.
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