Is the pendulum swinging in a different direction?

[righteousdude2]

Fascinating. Could you provide us some words from this language?

Brother, this is a form of mocking! I know you don't mean it that way, but, it is splitting the hair when it comes to mocking another's gift! I use my language in the privacy of my prayer closet, and as for interpreting my words, I trust that the Spirit does that as Pau; teaches in Romans 8:26. In fact here is a good link about how God helps us in prayer - Four Ways the Holy Spirit Intercedes for Us

 

[righteousdude2]

I have.
I will say that I believe that a tremendous amount of what happens in many "tongue" talking churches is 100% out of order. Chaos, distraction, and confusion. Not at all in line with Paul's instruction for use of the gifts.

I agree. In churches where a verbal word is given, if there is no interpretation by another member, the pastors I know, call it out as a false word! But if one speaks in tongues and an interpretation follows, for the lips of another person, it is possible that it is of God, and I will not be the one to judge it as anything different!

 

[TCassidy]

To the point, I believe my previous gift of tongues and probably all gifts of tongues nowadays are in fact a counterfeit gift given by the spirit of the antichrist.

I agree. So does Paul. 1 Corinthians 14:19 However in the assembly I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in another language.

In my experience I have found there are three sources of so-called "tongues" today.

1. About 90% are just fake.
2. 5% may be mental illness. (Traumatic head injury has been known to cause glossolalia).
3. 5% may be of Satanic origin to deceive the speaker.

If a person is speaking in an unknown language, a language he does not understand, how does that person know he is not cursing God and blaspheming Christ? After all he does not understand what he is saying!

 

[righteousdude2]

νυνὶ δὲ μένει πίστις, ἐλπίς, ἀγάπη, τὰ τρία ταῦτα· μείζων δὲ τούτων ἡ ἀγάπη.

νυνὶ = not only "now" (an adverb modifying "abides") in the temporal sense, but "just now." The verb being modified is μενει, a present, active, indicative.

Paul says "Just now, in the present, there remain only three . . . "

Wow! that looks like you just typed in tongues! I do not mean to put fun on yo Greek or Hebrew, brother, but I had to add a little levity to the heaviness of this OP. That is Greek, right? One of my more problem filled classes. .

νυνὶ δὲ μένει πίστις, ἐλπίς, ἀγάπη, τὰ τρία ταῦτα· μείζων δὲ τούτων ἡ ἀγάπη.

νυνὶ = not only "now" (an adverb modifying "abides") in the temporal sense, but "just now." The verb being modified is μενει, a present, active, indicative.

Paul says "Just now, in the present, there remain only three . . . "

Δεν σας βάζω κάτω για να πληκτρολογείτε σε άλλη γλώσσα (γλώσσα), οπότε γιατί θέτετε εκείνους που μιλούν σε γλώσσες, κάτω;

- OR -
​

אני לא שם אותך על הקלדת לשון אחרת (שפה), אז למה אתה שם את מי לדבר בלשונות, למטה?

 

[righteousdude2]

1. About 90% are just fake.
2. 5% may be mental illness. (Traumatic head injury has been known to cause glossolalia).
3. 5% may be of Satanic origin to deceive the speaker.

Those must be your own figures or views, because they seem quite slanted and opinionated. If in fact those figures are from a real poll, please give the source!

 

[MennoSota]

νυνὶ δὲ μένει πίστις, ἐλπίς, ἀγάπη, τὰ τρία ταῦτα· μείζων δὲ τούτων ἡ ἀγάπη.

νυνὶ = not only "now" (an adverb modifying "abides") in the temporal sense, but "just now." The verb being modified is μενει, a present, active, indicative.

Paul says "Just now, in the present, there remain only three . . . "

Yet he thanked God that he spoke in tongues. Hmmm....

1 Corinthians 14:4-5,18
[4]A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.
[5]I wish you could all speak in tongues, but even more I wish you could all prophesy. For prophecy is greater than speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church will be strengthened.
[18]I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.

 

[righteousdude2]

If a person is speaking in an unknown language, a language he does not understand, how does that person know he is not cursing God and blaspheming Christ? After all he does not understand what he is saying!

Even if, your were correct brother, Paul tells is in Romans 8:26 and Eph. 6:18 that God knows, through the groaning of the Holy Spirit what we are saying, and interprets for us to the Father! Your question that asks how "that person knows he is not cursing God and blaspheming Christ?" is not fair, nor is it Christian. Like you said in another comment, "God is not stupid. He speaks English," and for what you may not know, He speaks every other language know to mankind, which would be tongues uttered in prayer!

Again, I trust in what Paul said in Romans 8:26 - "And likewise also the Spirit helps our weakness; for we know not how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself makes entreaty for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." Jubilee Bible 2000

"At the same time the Spirit also helps us in our weakness, because we don't know how to pray for what we need. But the Spirit intercedes along with our groans that cannot be expressed in words." from GOD'S WORD Translation

Eph. 6:18 tells us to, "Pray in the Spirit at all times, with every kind of prayer and petition. To this end, stay alert with all perseverance in your prayers for all the saints."

Moving forward - Paul tells us clearly in 1 Cor. 14:5, "I wish that all of you could speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified."

Finally, I agree with Paul when he tells the church as follows, "You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other one is not edified. 18I thank God that I speak in tongues morethan all of you. 19But in the church, I would rather speak five coherent words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.…" 1 Cor. 14:17-19 BSB

In closing, brother Cassidy, I never said that I spoke tongues in church! I have clearly stated that I use a tongue when praying, privately, and it is not for sure, that the Apostle Paul did or didn't also use tongues in private prayer, which is assumed in his teachings above! And if he prayed with a tongue, there is no proof that those who followed him and learned from him, didn't in fact do the very same!

The truth is, everything that you have so professionally laid out as an argument, based upon your opinions and views, is exactly that. YOUR VIEWS and OPINIONS! You sir, have no more certainty of what you speak, then those of us who experienced and use a prayer language! And I believe that your views should come with that kind of DISCLAIMER!

I appreciate greatly, your knowledge and education in theology,
but, there are going to be opposing opinions and views.
Heck, even doctors disagree on how to treat physical or emotional problems. That is why a person who uses a D.O. should be aware,
that a Doctor of Osteopathy sees and does things differently
than let's say a M.D.​

 

[Reynolds]

Paul may have spoken in tongues. I am sure he was trying to rid the church of the in fighting, when he said what he said!

He definitely spoke in tongues. I Cor 14:18

 

[TCassidy]

Yet he thanked God that he spoke in tongues. Hmmm....

Yes, we all know that. What's your point?

 

[Reynolds]

νυνὶ δὲ μένει πίστις, ἐλπίς, ἀγάπη, τὰ τρία ταῦτα· μείζων δὲ τούτων ἡ ἀγάπη.

νυνὶ = not only "now" (an adverb modifying "abides") in the temporal sense, but "just now." The verb being modified is μενει, a present, active, indicative.

Paul says "Just now, in the present, there remain only three . . . "

Its funny how Greek scholars are. You emphatically say the last verse in chapter 13 means one thing and the scholars of three different study Bibles say it means another.

 

[Reynolds]

Yes, we all know that. What's your point?

When did Paul stop speaking in tongues?According to you, he would have had to have stopped before penning verse 13. We know from later text that can not be the case.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, we all know that. What's your point?

You cannot be correct.

 

[Reformed]

When I became a Christian (1979) I attended an Assembly of God church in Harrison, NJ. A "prophetess" came to speak and baptize people in the Holy Spirit (the second blessing), accompanied by receiving the "gift of tongues". Forget for a moment that Eph. 1:3 tells us that we have every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, in Christ, ergo we lack nothing for the practice of our Christian faith. Intuitively I knew that there was something wrong praying in an unintelligible language that my mind did not understand. Even though I was a new Christian, I understood plainly from the Bible that tongues was speaking a known language you did not previously know. As I matured as a believer I was taught hermeneutical principles by a godly pastor. He taught me that when there is one plain, normative passage on a matter, and one vague passage on the same matter, interpret that vague passage through the plain, normative passage. Acts 2 is the plain, normative passage on tongues. The tongues spoken on the day of Pentecost were known languages. The tongues spoken in 1 Corinthians 14 are vague. Is it an ecstatic language? Is it a known language? Christians on both sides argue. The plain, normative text in Acts 2 adds clarity.

Another a problem with a private prayer language is that a) there is no interpreter b) there is no warrant in scripture to pray in such a manner c) Rom. 8:26 is grossly ripped out of context by Continualists d) there is no benefit to praying in a private prayer language that your own native tongue cannot provide. When Paul wrote " In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;" (Rom. 8:26), he was simply saying that because of our sin and human frailty, we sometimes do not even know what to pray. I have been like this when broken by my sin and have experienced something profoundly emotional. God knows our heart even when we do not know what to say.

Back to that "prophetess". I was told that Christians who receive the second blessing and speak in tongues are closer to God. They have something that other Christians do not. I understood that this created a caste system within the church. Verbalized or not, there was this reality that "I have something you do not." When I came to that realization I left charismania.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Back to that "prophetess". I was told that Christians who receive the second blessing and speak in tongues are closer to God. They have something that other Christians do not. I understood that this created a caste system within the church. Verbalized or not, there was this reality that "I have something you do not." When I came to that realization I left charismania.

Quite right!
'As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him..........For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him' (Colossians 2:6, 9).

Spiritual gifts are not given for the benefit of the recipients, but 'for the equipping of the saints, for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ' (Ephesians 4:12). I find it hard to see how 'tongues' can accomplish this.

 

[MennoSota]

Quite right!
'As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him..........For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him' (Colossians 2:6, 9).

Spiritual gifts are not given for the benefit of the recipients, but 'for the equipping of the saints, for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ' (Ephesians 4:12). I find it hard to see how 'tongues' can accomplish this.

This is why I see tongues as a gift given by God solely for the work of evangelism as we observe it in the Acts of the Apostles.
The Corinthian church was a mess and should not be our mentor regarding the gift of tongues.

 

[TCassidy]

When did Paul stop speaking in tongues?According to you, he would have had to have stopped before penning verse 13. We know from later text that can not be the case.

It might be a good idea to go back and read what I actually posted. At the time Paul penned the words to verse 13 the gifts were no longer being given to new converts. Those already so gifted continued to exercise their gifts until their deaths, and when they died out the gifts died out with them.

 

[TCassidy]

You cannot be correct.

Brilliant argumentation.

 

[TCassidy]

Its funny how Greek scholars are. You emphatically say the last verse in chapter 13 means one thing and the scholars of three different study Bibles say it means another.

I show what it says. I explain that "now" is an adverb modifying a present tense verb. Please show me that I am wrong, that the Greek word translated "now" is not an adverb or that it not modifying the verb "abideth" (remains), or that "abideth" is not in the present tense.

I am awaiting your knowledgeable and erudite exposition of where I am wrong regarding the Greek grammar in question. Show that "now" is not an adverb. Or show that "abideth" (remains) is not the verb being modified, or that "abideth" (remains) is not in the present tense.

 

[Reynolds]

It might be a good idea to go back and read what I actually posted. At the time Paul penned the words to verse 13 the gifts were no longer being given to new converts. Those already so gifted continued to exercise their gifts until their deaths, and when they died out the gifts died out with them.

I did, but you want it both ways. You said "When Paul said "Now" what part of that word didn't you understand?".
Text does not say "now, no new believers will be gifted."

 

[Reynolds]

This is why I see tongues as a gift given by God solely for the work of evangelism as we observe it in the Acts of the Apostles.
The Corinthian church was a mess and should not be our mentor regarding the gift of tongues.

The genuine gift of tongues was operating in the church of Corinth. Things were s mess. People now use things being a mess to argue against tongues. Makes you think.