Is the Rejection of Christ 'the' Damning Sin?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Spirit testifies with spirit (Ro 8)

HP: This answer shows that God testifies to our Spirit, but not how ‘we’ exhibit‘ or exercise faith. Steaver needs to try again to answer Webdog's questions directly.

 

[steaver]

I did answer it. It is trust in something or someone. It's hoping for something that there is evidence for and is not seen. Better yet, tell me how you exhibit faith and then tell me if a fetus can do the same.

I see "trust" and "hope" in your definition. These are synonymous with "Faith". You have not explained what having the "means to exhibit faith" is nor have given an example of it. And remember, this is what you said is "required" for salvation.

HP gives a little more information;

One exhibits faith by forming intents and as such directing ones subsequent action, in accordance to truth. That is something absolutely impossible for an infant to do.

"Forming intents" and "action". Ok, tell us why a spirit cannot form intents and take action.

Here is what you are missing. Faith does not require a physical body to exist. Having a physical body allows faith to express itself in many ways, but the body is not required for saving faith (regeneration). All that is required is the spirit. God calls this spirit the "heart".

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Please do not let the "confess with thy mouth" cause you to further error that a mouth is nescessary for one to have faith. Then you would have to believe that someone unable to speak could not hear, understand and have faith.

It is not a heart of flesh nor a mouth of flesh that is needed for faith to form. I hope you will not argue that.

God is not limited to any of your boxes that you might create for hIm either. Babies have spirits and God is Spirit. God has given us a commandment to fulfill, that is go and preach. Please do not think that God has limited Himself only to what we humans can accomplish. God does not tell us how He takes care of those who cannot hear the gospel preached by human beings.

Does one develope faith without the Holy Spirit?

The only means needed to exhibit a saving faith is a spirit created by God.

All other exhibitions of faith by any means of the flesh only justifies the reality of the said saving faith within the spirit. James tells us this about Abraham. "Saving faith" is the "regeneration", Spirit tesifying with spirit. It is the only means by which we are saved and the only means by which we are kept by the power of God.

Life (soul/spirit) begins at conception. God does not need a finished, mature human body in order to speak to the spirit He created.

Luk 1:41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:


Do you still believe God cannot speak to babies in the womb?

:jesus:

 

[Amy.G]

Luk 1:41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:



:jesus:

Doesn't the fact that baby John leaped prove that babies are in fact not separated from God? (Spiritually dead).

 

[steaver]

Doesn't the fact that baby John leaped prove that babies are in fact not separated from God? (Spiritually dead).

I don't believe we can take it that far, but it does show a baby can respond to the Spirit of God and it could not do this without a spirit.

Ecc 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Doesn't the fact that baby John leaped prove that babies are in fact not separated from God? (Spiritually dead).

The term "spiritually dead" needs to come with some specifics. I believe the spirit is still functioning it is just seperated because of the curse.

Remember that all (lost and saved) are created by God and cannot live without Him.

Act 17:28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
HP: One exhibits faith by forming intents and as such directing ones subsequent action, in accordance to truth. That is something absolutely impossible for an infant to do.

Steaver: "Forming intents" and "action". Ok, tell us why a spirit cannot form intents and take action…...
Faith does not require a physical body to exist. Having a physical body allows faith to express itself in many ways, but the body is not required for saving faith (regeneration). All that is required is the spirit. God calls this spirit the "heart".

HP: Says who? Where is there the slightest indication that anyone or anything outside of our physical finite real of men that God has hemmed us into, can or ever has exercised faith? Where in the world did you ever learn such philosophy?

Steaver: Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Please do not let the "confess with thy mouth" cause you to further error that a mouth is nescessary for one to have faith. Then you would have to believe that someone unable to speak could not hear, understand and have faith.

HP: You forget that we have learned from discussion. Why are you allowing man’s philosophical reasoning to guide you in the interpretation of the Word of God? ( I am just trying to make us all aware beyond a shadow of a doubt, that everyone uses philosophical means to establish truth in Scripture, stated or implied.

Steaver: Luk 1:41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:


Do you still believe God cannot speak to babies in the womb?

HP: Let’s see. Donkeys can speak the words of God given to them to speak as well as leap, so does that make them moral agents capable of fulfilling the stated conditions for receiving salvation. i.e., the stated commands of God to repent and exercise faith? Do donkeys have spirits?

Clearly, reacting to stimuli from the Holy Spirit by no means implies true ability to understanding inside the womb and by no means establishes anything concerning the ability to exercise saving faith period.

 

[steaver]

HP: Says who? Where is there the slightest indication that anyone or anything outside of our physical finite real of men that God has hemmed us into, can or ever has exercised faith? Where in the world did you ever learn such philosophy?

"The slightest indication" you ask?

Have you prayed today?

If the only way one exercises faith is via the brain then one has not been born of God.

1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

This is exercising faith through the inner man, the spirit. The philosphy is grounded very well in scripture.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

When one prays in the Spirit he is still within the realm of being a finite man Steaver. The notion that infants can exercise faith for salvation is preposterous, and certainly not supported by reason or Scripture.

Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You failed to address even one solitary issue I actually spoke to you about.

 

[grahame]

Heavenly Pilgrim. Whenever I read your posts, however the thread begins, you always seem to get round to speaking about infants and salvation. Very rarely have I seen your arguments backed up by scripture, yet you are always demanding that others back up their arguments with scripture. And when they do, you always seem to revert back to philosophical arguments without accepting the scripture given.
Why do you always seem to go down the road of infant salvation? The scripture says

"Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted , and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

It always worries me when I see this kind of continual arguing and speculating on one particular subject, as if there is nothing else of worth in the Christian world. It rather points to a problem with that person than with those they are arguing with. I think the question that we ought to begin to ask is not whether infants are being saved, but rather do we have that mind of the child within ourselves of which our Lord was speaking?
For in my experience it is only when a man has ceased all his arguments against Gods sovereignty that God begins a work in that mans heart. Children are put forward as an example that we should follow. It is a pity that so few Christians actually listen to what he was saying. :love2:

 

[steaver]

When one prays in the Spirit he is still within the realm of being a finite man Steaver.

2Cr 12:2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

I believe what causes you to struggle with understanding that it is Spirit that communicates with spirit is that you fail to recognize that the flesh counts for nothing.

1Cr 15:50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;

Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

You are missing so much brother in your understanding of scripture. I feel you are like Nicodemus and just have not grasped it yet. Although I do believe it is of your own doing, I believe you have chosen to closed your eyes and ears on the matter.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

HP, you need to do a study on just what it is to be born of God. Stop saying "how can these things be" and just embrace what Jesus has told us.

Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

You seem to think of yourself as a master of how salvation works, yet the term "born-again" means very little to you and instead you focus most all of your energy on "exhibiting faith with the flesh for salvation" or in other words "working for salvation".

"Born again" is everything and it is the ONLY thing that is salvation. Born again causes saving faith and born again seals our saving faith.

I don't think you understand that there is different works of the Holy Spirit. Like the Donkey speaking via the Holy Spirit. This doesn't mean the donkey is "born again", neither does the Spirit speaking through Moses mean that Moses was born again. Born again is a seperate act of God on a person aside from any other workings of the Holy Spirit among man or beast. If you study the subject you will see this.

You just don't get it,

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

You failed to address even one solitary issue I actually spoke to you about.

I believe I do a pretty good job of addressing your issues :smilewinkgrin:. You may not like it and I suppose my views could be wrong on some issues, but I strive to follow as closely to what is actually written the best I humanly can.

I believe most readers reading this thread will see that while neither of our views are expressly written out in scripture my view with the scripture given of how God communicates to us via Spirit to spirit is far more plausible than making up any unscriptural age of accountability. A fetus has a spirit at conception.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

And what is the spirit of a fetus capable of Steaver?

 

[steaver]

And what is the spirit of a fetus capable of Steaver?

Hearing and responding to the Holy Spirit.

Luk 1:44For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

:thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

So, you would admit then that a fetus could hear from the moment of conception the Spirit of God and respond to it. That would prove beyond a shadow a doubt then that no man is devoid of the Spirit of God, and that all men, from conception are given every ability to respond to the Holy Spirit. Are we in agreement so far?

 

[steaver]

So, you would admit then that a fetus could hear from the moment of conception the Spirit of God and respond to it. That would prove beyond a shadow a doubt then that no man is devoid of the Spirit of God, and that all men, from conception are given every ability to respond to the Holy Spirit. Are we in agreement so far?

Act 17:28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Agreed!

:thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Then, you would have to admit that we are indeed not totally corrupted neither is our spirit separated from God in conception, right?

 

[steaver]

Then, you would have to admit that we are indeed not totally corrupted neither is our spirit separated from God in conception, right?

"Totally corrupted"? It is evident that even athiest can do good things, can love, can cry, can feel compassion and give mercy. Human beings are God's offspring and this is why even those without the Spirit of Christ can feel and do good things.

HP; Is our spirit seperated from God in conception?

The scripture says that all people whether they be believers or not have their being in God, (Acts 17:28) Would this not require a Spirit connection else one would "totally" cease to exist?

And then there is scripture that says if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His (Romans 8)

So I ask, can one even exist without some form of conection with God via the human spirit?

What I am sure of is that the curse is past on to all persons (Romans 5) and all are in need of salvation no matter what their age, whether it be two minutes old or two hundred years old. How God reaches those who cannot hear a preacher we are not told. But I know God can certainly speak to any spirit by His Spirit, He would not need a developed human body.

If you were honest with yourself, you would admit that "Age of accountability" is purely conjecture and it is an atempt to comfort and make sense of something that we simply cannot answer. We don't have to know the answer to this question. Oftentimes we students of the word can fall into the traps of believing we must have a biblical answer for every single question man can ponder. We have to work on our humility constantly and allow ourselves to say sometimes that we just cannot know absolutely all things concerning God. He has given us as much as he seen fit written in His word.

Brother to brother HP, consider just teaching what has been written and if it is not clear then just say so. We all have our personal "could be's" on issues that are not crystal clear.

:jesus:

 

[JSM17]

Steaver Wrote:

Rom 5:12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 6:23For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do babies die? It is because they are cursed from the original sin of Adam. Do not confuse Eze 18 (personal sins) with the original curse caused by Adam's sin and passed on to all through the blood or conception.


Quote:
Is God the author of man's soul, does God create children of the Devil.

God creates all men. Children of wrath are those who reject God's grace.


Quote:
If a child is born sinful, depraved, apart from God then they are children of the Devil by default according to your logic.

Not according to logic, according to the scriptures. God must redeem ALL from death and damnation.


Quote:
So therefore you must conclude that God creates hell bound babies because they are cursed with their parents sins traced all the way back to Adam and Eve.

If that is what you want to call them, but yes, God must redeem ALL from the curse, including babies.


Quote:
Is that what you believe, because that is what your implying that scripture teaches and that is just not scripturally true

It is written. What else can I tell you. I believe what causes one to error in this topic is not being able to understand the difference between the curse of sin and being held personally accountable for transgressions of God's law. Both need grace and mercy.

We cannot help but sin from birth, this is the curse. Also, we can learn right and wrong and choose to do wrong, this is personal sins. Jesus' blood covers both.

You said babies die as a result of original sin, yet if all babies are born with original sin would they not all die then?

If death is a result of original sin and if the damning sin is rejection of Christ how is it that you conclude that babies or infants right out of the womb that die are guilty of rejecting Christ?

Which is it, damned for rejecting Christ as infants or damned because God has cursed the infant with their fathers sins?

How does an infant have faith, I believe that you implied that they could have faith in a post in response to H.P.?

As for Ezek. 18 there is no mistake, God does not hold my fathers sins against me and my sins against him, the nature of sin is choice to transgress God laws. James clearly indicates that sin is something developed not inherited. If it is inherited then it is no longer choice, if not choice then are we to conclude that God made me sinful, because no matter how you try to move it around, either God made my soul or He didn't, if he did, did He make me with a tarnished soul because of something my father did (sinned).

The bottom line is that sin has cursed man with death, physical and spiritual.

 

[webdog]

Steaver Wrote:


You said babies die as a result of original sin, yet if all babies are born with original sin would they not all die then?

If death is a result of original sin and if the damning sin is rejection of Christ how is it that you conclude that babies or infants right out of the womb that die are guilty of rejecting Christ?

Which is it, damned for rejecting Christ as infants or damned because God has cursed the infant with their fathers sins?

How does an infant have faith, I believe that you implied that they could have faith in a post in response to H.P.?

As for Ezek. 18 there is no mistake, God does not hold my fathers sins against me and my sins against him, the nature of sin is choice to transgress God laws. James clearly indicates that sin is something developed not inherited. If it is inherited then it is no longer choice, if not choice then are we to conclude that God made me sinful, because no matter how you try to move it around, either God made my soul or He didn't, if he did, did He make me with a tarnished soul because of something my father did (sinned).

The bottom line is that sin has cursed man with death, physical and spiritual.

JSM, weren't you a calvinist at one point? Your recent contributions seem to go against that doctrine. Have you left the "dark side"?

 

[steaver]

You said babies die as a result of original sin, yet if all babies are born with original sin would they not all die then?

Isn't it interesting that as soon as a person is concieved they begin to live and begin to die simultaneously?

If death is a result of original sin and if the damning sin is rejection of Christ how is it that you conclude that babies or infants right out of the womb that die are guilty of rejecting Christ?

I don't. How would I have that kind of God knowledge?

Which is it, damned for rejecting Christ as infants or damned because God has cursed the infant with their fathers sins?

Neither. I have no knowlege if they rejected Christ or not. And God does not curse people for their fathers sins (Eze 18) . Mankind is cursed through Adam's original sin (Ro 5) . God said so.

How does an infant have faith, I believe that you implied that they could have faith in a post in response to H.P.?

The same way you and I have faith, born of God (John 3) , Spirit testifies with spirit (Romans 8) .

As for Ezek. 18 there is no mistake, God does not hold my fathers sins against me and my sins against him, the nature of sin is choice to transgress God laws. James clearly indicates that sin is something developed not inherited. If it is inherited then it is no longer choice, if not choice then are we to conclude that God made me sinful, because no matter how you try to move it around, either God made my soul or He didn't, if he did, did He make me with a tarnished soul because of something my father did (sinned).

I believe what makes this confusing for you is that you have locked yourself into insisting that is must be one or the other. There is an inherited curse which gives us all the "sin nature" and causes us to be less than perfect (Ro 5, Ro 7) . And then there is sin that is freely chosen as James points out.

We are all created by God through His creation of Adam and Eve. It is God's work that knits us together in the womb. Sin has not prevented God from continuing to create people.

....either God made my soul or He didn't, if he did, did He make me with a tarnished soul because of something my father did (sinned).

God also makes each person's body, are they all perfect? No, yet God made them, correct? The curse has caused imperfect bodies and imperfect souls and spirits, yet God is the Creator of both.

The bottom line is that sin has cursed man with death, physical and spiritual.

Yes it has and it has been passed along to every soul through Adam's seed (Ro 5) .

:jesus: