Is the Rejection of Christ 'the' Damning Sin?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

By no means let common sense and sound reasoning stand in your way DHK.

 

[steaver]

Steaver if sin is a necessitated trait, morality is a chimera and punishments for sin worse than absurdly wicked.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

"If sin is a necessitated trait"?? You are saying that it is possible for a person to go thirty or firty years without sinning?

Read Romans 7.

:jesus:

 

[webdog]

I had a thought. if the penalty of sin is death including physical, then why do babies die?

Hell is a whole different issue that the bible is silent on other than Davids comment about him seeing his baby again.

Why did Christ die? He knew no sin!

 

[DHK]

By no means let common sense and sound reasoning stand in your way DHK.

I don't. I use the Word of God, back up what I say with Scripture.
"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" Jer.17:9
God destroyed the world because "the imaginations of man's heart was evil continually."

You speak from your heart and your imagination.
I speak from Scripture.

 

[webdog]

You don't see any support for it because there isn't any :thumbsup:

All are born with the curse of sin and in need of God's salvation.

Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


It's been said before, Set two toddlers down together and give just one an ice cream cone, the one with the cone will not share and the one without will try to steal it.

The sin in children can be observed. Some try to say that if they don't understand their sin then they are not guilty of sin. Adam did not understand or know "good and evil" when he "sinned".

Notice "have sinned"..past tense. What sin did a newly conceived human commit in the past (and don't tell me Adam's sin, we are held accountable for OUR sin)

 

[webdog]

I don't. I use the Word of God, back up what I say with Scripture.
"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" Jer.17:9
God destroyed the world because "the imaginations of man's heart was evil continually."

You speak from your heart and your imagination.
I speak from Scripture.

In all fairness, he has supplied Scripture. The Augustinian camp just doesn't like it.

 

[steaver]

Notice "have sinned"..past tense. What sin did a newly conceived human commit in the past (and don't tell me Adam's sin, we are held accountable for OUR sin)

Personally committed, meaning the person did or said something that goes against God's law? None.

The curse is in the blood. It's not about being "held accountable". All are cursed. All need Jesus Christ's atonement.

What do you think about abortion? Horrific isn't it? How many of the fifty million babies murdered by abortion so far in this country do you believe would have been condemned to hell if they would have had the chance to be born and grow old? 50%, 70%, 90%?
With the odds of conversion so low in this country to those who hear the gospel, maybe from an eternal pov it is best to just kill our children. That way they are gauranteed Heaven! And Christians could kill their children if it was for such a noble reason, no? It wouldn't be like murder really, they are gauranteed eternal life! What is a few years alive in the flesh here on earth compared to millions of years of eternity?
I know God said do not kill, but in this case, with the stakes so astronomically HIGH, hell verses heaven, abortion=eternal life, birth=98% chance of eternal damnation, why fight abortion? We might get abortion outlawed and cause millions of babies to grow up and spend eternity in hell!

This is how the "all babies go to heaven" pov can cause some complacency among us. I believe it is why many Christians are indifferent towards abortion and put it low on their priority list, especially when voting. What if we would err on the side of all babies go to hell because they did not get a chance to hear? Maybe we as a whole would take abortion a bit more seriously.

So really, isn't abortion, eternally speaking, best for the baby from an "all babies go to heaven" pov? I know, NO NO NO, abortion is murder!! But think about it, they get a free pass, right? I am glad God saved me, but if I didn't know any better and it is true that an abortion would have sent me straight to Jesus forever and ever, never having to struggle with sin and the curses of this life, I would say thank you for killing me in the womb! Otherwise, I might have been condemned to hell forever, along with the other 98% of the human race that made it out of the womb alive.

Just something to ponder. For the record, I hate abortion and pray all babies get to be born!

raying:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: Notice "have sinned"..past tense. What sin did a newly conceived human commit in the past (and don't tell me Adam's sin, we are held accountable for OUR sin)

HP: You are right on target Webdog. :thumbsup:

 

[steaver]

Notice "have sinned"..past tense. What sin did a newly conceived human commit in the past (and don't tell me Adam's sin, we are held accountable for OUR sin)

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


That is five times in five verses! Do you understand yet? How many more ways does the word of God need to tell you that ALL are under condemnation BECAUSE OF ADAM"S ONE ORIGINAL SIN?

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

HP: So how is it you find this verse not lending itself to universalism?

 

[steaver]

HP: So how is it you find this verse not lending itself to universalism?

I don't, the question is why would you?

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Just wondering.

 

[steaver]

Just wondering.

What baffles me is how you can read Romans 5:15-19 and walk away saying there is no such thing as original sin causing condemnation to all.

:jesus:

 

[webdog]

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.




That is five times in five verses! Do you understand yet? How many more ways does the word of God need to tell you that ALL are under condemnation BECAUSE OF ADAM"S ONE ORIGINAL SIN?

:jesus:

All are under condemnation to die physically! That is what the text is saying very clearly. To state it is in reference to all being created sinners is pure eisegesis. It has been appointed unto man ONCE to die (physically) and after that the judgement. If we were created spiritually dead (an oxymoron since death is the ceasing of life that would be needed at some point after creation) it would have been appointed unto man TWICE to die, once physically and once spiritually.
HP is right...if you hold to all being created sinners due to Adam's act, the "so as" must support universalism and all being made righteous due to the second Adam's act. There is no other way around that, the etymology is pretty straight forward.

Have you read Romans 7? When does Paul states he died spiritually?

 

[Marcia]

If we were created spiritually dead (an oxymoron since death is the ceasing of life that would be needed at some point after creation) it would have been appointed unto man TWICE to die, once physically and once spiritually.

Being born spiritually dead means being born separated from God, so that has nothing to do with the cessation of life.

 

[DHK]

If we were created spiritually dead (an oxymoron since death is the ceasing of life that would be needed at some point after creation) it would have been appointed unto man TWICE to die, once physically and once spiritually.

First, death does not mean cessation of life, unless you are SDA.
Death is separation, Biblically. Here is a quote from James:

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--When the spirit separates from the body then death occurs. That is the definition of physical death.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--The Ephesians were separated from God by sin, and thus termed dead. Sin separates. This is spiritual death. Death is separation.

There will be the Second Death--that final sentencing of eternal death or separation from God for all eternity.

Most important of all, death is not cessation of life. To look at the Bible that way skews the proper interpretation of the passage examined. A man that is spiritually dead (separated from God) is still able to respond to God. He needs to be reconciled to God. A person who is lifeless of course cannot respond. That is Calvinism, and why Calvinism in this respect is wrong.

Secondly, consider.
Born once; die twice.
Born twice; die once.

The above is worth pondering, for it is true.

 

[webdog]

Being born spiritually dead means being born separated from God, so that has nothing to do with the cessation of life.

Ok Marcia and DHK...separation means to disunite. At what point was the conceived person united? How are spiritually separated people saved? By faith in Christ. How does a zygote exhibit faith without the means to do so?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: A man that is spiritually dead (separated from God) is still able to respond to God. He needs to be reconciled to God. A person who is lifeless of course cannot respond. That is Calvinism, and why Calvinism in this respect is wrong.

HP: I can seriously appreciate what you are saying here. I agree that a spiritually dead individual indeed has the necessary abilities to respond to God. We would both agree that even exercising such abilities has no power to save in and of themselves, for we need a covering, and atonement for our sins that only the blood of Christ can give, without which we cannot be reconciled to God.

It would seem to me that you would desire a clean break from the constitutional depravity of original sin, for if original sin is true it necessitates the soul to evil and that continually. What difference does it make if one has all the abilities to respond in the world, but are rendered absolutely impotent due to a nature that necessitates one to evil? In fairness, and I am trying to be fair, I cannot see any real meaningful distinction between your position and the position of those holding to original sin. Can you see why I would see no meaningful distinction? The depravity you hold to does in essence the very same thing the depravity of the Calvinist or Arminian does concerning the ability of contrary choice when it comes to 'sin.' The only difference is when it comes to salvation, you obviously believe man has abilities to turn to God (much like the Arminian) yet that seems to be the only decision one has the abilities to do. What 'Scriptural' right do we have to say that babies do not have to hear and respond to the gospel in order to be saved if they are indeed sinners?

How does your position free God from creating men as sinners and for holding them accountable for sins they cannot help but commit? If 'all' means all, as you say when the Scriptures state all have sinned, why does not ‘all’ must repent mean ‘all ‘ ilude infants needing to repent as well? What do infants have to repent for? Can they repent for God creating them precisely as they are apart from any choice of their own or involvement in the makeup of their natures that you would agree necessitates all as sinners?

 

[steaver]

All are under condemnation to die physically! That is what the text is saying very clearly. To state it is in reference to all being created sinners is pure eisegesis.

Why does God condemn me to death for Adam's sin? I thought you didn't believe God holds anyone accountable for Adam's sin? How is that fair and just, that I am appointed to die because Adam sinned?

 

[steaver]

How does a zygote exhibit faith without the means to do so?

What is the "means" you think is needed to exhibit faith? I believe it is the spirit. Why do you think a zygote is not given a spirit at conception?

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

:godisgood: