Is there A Baptism In the holy Spirit For today?

[saturneptune]

First of all, sometimes we lose sight of the fact that often these terms are metaphors: baptized (not with water, but still immersed), filled (not our bodies), endued with (clothed with). I believe (comparing Acts 2:4, Mark 1:5, Luke 24:49) these all refer to the same event, the power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost for the purpose of winning souls (compare Acts 4:8 & 31 to ch. 2). God used these equivalent terms to give us a full picture, but they are all metaphors for God giving power for service through the Holy Spirit.

Concerning the events of Acts 10-11, I connect them with Peter receiving the keys to the Kingdom (Matt. 16:19). The Holy Spirit was "poured out" (11:15; another metaphor) to show that the Gentiles were equally a part of the church with the Jews. So Peter was opening the door to the Gentiles with his metaphorical keys."

Note that the tongues were not mentioned by Peter in ch. 11; they were a sign, but not an important one. They only occur one other time in Acts, so three times all together. The third time they occur (19:6), the disciples of John are introduced to the church. It happens no more. I once sat across from some "Latter Rain" Japanese Charismatics in the home of a couple in my church and asked, "How many times do tongues occur in Acts?" They said, "Five or six," and were amazed to learn it was only three.

Concerning 1 Cor. 12:13, this is a different metaphor than the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 etc., because we are all baptized (immersed) into a body--which has to be the body of Christ. The term "body" does not appear in other passages. Again, all believers in this age have the indwelling Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9), meaning that any prayer to have the Holy Spirit given is moot.

I hope this helps.

Thank you very much. Yes it helps greatly, and believe we are on the same page. Those Chapters in Acts are hard to do a study on, especially with a Pentecostal in the audience. LOL. I tried to compare Pentecost to the Spirit being made avaliable to the Gentiles in Acts 9-11, and to the Samarians in Chapter 8, about a seven or eight year period of time. When they were first called Chrisitans at Antioch forward, the Spirit was here for all to respond to the Gospel.

Praise God He included the Gentiles, don't you think? Well, again, thanks. May God continue to bless your ministry and family. I have learned much from you over the years.

 

[John of Japan]

Thank you very much. Yes it helps greatly, and believe we are on the same page. Those Chapters in Acts are hard to do a study on, especially with a Pentecostal in the audience. LOL. I tried to compare Pentecost to the Spirit being made avaliable to the Gentiles in Acts 9-11, and to the Samarians in Chapter 8, about a seven or eight year period of time. When they were first called Chrisitans at Antioch forward, the Spirit was here for all to respond to the Gospel.

Praise God He included the Gentiles, don't you think? Well, again, thanks. May God continue to bless your ministry and family. I have learned much from you over the years.

Amen, glad it's working out. It's not an easy subject.

Thanks for the kind words. :type:

 

[awaken]

Has anyone ever answered the Acts 8 Where the people believed and were baptized but did not receive the Holy Spirit?

 

[DHK]

Has anyone ever answered the Acts 8 Where the people believed and were baptized but did not receive the Holy Spirit?

It is one of many evidences in the Bible that tongues and baptism of the Holy Spirit are totally unrelated. As false cults like Oneness Pentecostal teach, tongues is not a result of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is one of the sign gifts, and had a definite function in the first century. Today it has ceased.

 

[awaken]

It is one of many evidences in the Bible that tongues and baptism of the Holy Spirit are totally unrelated. As false cults like Oneness Pentecostal teach, tongues is not a result of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is one of the sign gifts, and had a definite function in the first century. Today it has ceased.

Why is it that EVERY post I make you have to bring up tongues?
This thread is about the baptism of the HOly Spirit.



"But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. ... When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8:12-17)

Notice that Peter and John were not sent to Samaria until the apostles heard that the Samaritans had received salvation by believing the Gospel message which Philip had preached. When Peter and John arrived, they laid hands on the Samaritans and then the Holy Spirit came on the Samaritans. Therefore, some amount of time passed between the moment the Samaritans were saved and the moment they "received" the Holy Spirit. This brings up an interesting question.

Most Christian denominations teach that everyone automatically receives the indwelling Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation, so why does it appear as if the Samaritans did not automatically receive the Holy Spirit when they received salvation? Is there a very simple answer to this question? I think so if we get a better understanding of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

This passage says that the Holy Spirit had not yet "come upon" any of the Samaritans. Notice that this is the same wording which is used to describe the baptism in the Holy Spirit in all the other examples in Acts.

 

[DHK]

Why is it that EVERY post I make you have to bring up tongues?
This thread is about the baptism of the HOly Spirit.

Because most Charismatics connect the two, as I just demonstrated to you.

This passage says that the Holy Spirit had not yet "come upon" any of the Samaritans. Notice that this is the same wording which is used to describe the baptism in the Holy Spirit in all the other examples in Acts.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

This directive was given to the disciples of the time. The power was the coming of the Holy Spirit specifically on the Day of Pentecost. However, we also see some other things here as well.

After Jerusalem, which is in Judea the gospel would go to the Samaritans, a half-breed which the Jews hated, and had no dealings with. See John 4.
First Jerusalem and Judea.
Then Samaria. Note that the baptism of the Holy Spirit did not have to be accompanied by tongues. That is the lesson to be learned.
Third was Acts 10--the house of Cornelius or the Gentiles.
--Now the gospel has gone to the Jews, the Samaritans, and the Gentiles.
Fourth was Acts 19, some followers of John the Baptist who never heard of the Holy Spirit, and did not have a complete understanding of the gospel. They were Jews and they were in Ephesus. Now the gospel is going out farther away from Jerusalem, in Asia Minor symbolically representing the rest of the world.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Today power is associated with "preaching" and that is the only way you will find it in the epistles. Paul came to the Corinthians in the power of the Spirit. But that power was for preaching. The context is always the preaching of the gospel.
They had power to preach the gospel in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth.

 

[awaken]

Because most Charismatics connect the two, as I just demonstrated to you.

Well I am not most...and you are the one that can not get passed it!

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

This directive was given to the disciples of the time. The power was the coming of the Holy Spirit specifically on the Day of Pentecost. However, we also see some other things here as well.

After Jerusalem, which is in Judea the gospel would go to the Samaritans, a half-breed which the Jews hated, and had no dealings with. See John 4.
First Jerusalem and Judea.
Then Samaria. Note that the baptism of the Holy Spirit did not have to be accompanied by tongues. That is the lesson to be learned.

There you go again!

Third was Acts 10--the house of Cornelius or the Gentiles.
--Now the gospel has gone to the Jews, the Samaritans, and the Gentiles.
Fourth was Acts 19, some followers of John the Baptist who never heard of the Holy Spirit, and did not have a complete understanding of the gospel. They were Jews and they were in Ephesus. Now the gospel is going out farther away from Jerusalem, in Asia Minor symbolically representing the rest of the world.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Today power is associated with "preaching" and that is the only way you will find it in the epistles. Paul came to the Corinthians in the power of the Spirit. But that power was for preaching. The context is always the preaching of the gospel.
They had power to preach the gospel in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth.

But you missed explaining the part where they had already believed the preached word and was baptized. But still did not receive the Holy Spirit...In Acts 8.

 

[Iconoclast]

Has anyone ever answered the Acts 8 Where the people believed and were baptized but did not receive the Holy Spirit?

Acts is a transitional book.....you do not base foundational doctrine on a transitional source.

 

[awaken]

Acts is a transitional book.....you do not base foundational doctrine on a transitional source.

So you can not explain it either!

 

[Iconoclast]

So you can not explain it either!

Acts 8....??? There are some people who are described as "believing in vain"by Paul in 1 cor 15.....

Simon is such:
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost

The gospel went from the jew, to the samaritan, then to the gentiles as Jesus said it would

covenant people....half covenant people....non covenant people....God had the Apostles go and credential them as having the same gift, by evidencing outward sign gifts....:thumbsup:

 

[awaken]

covenant people....half covenant people....non covenant people....God had the Apostles go and credential them as having the same gift, by evidencing outward sign gifts....:thumbsup:

Credential them? Where is this command in the Bible?

It said they believed the Word and were baptized but did not receive the Holy Spirit. Why?

 

[Iconoclast]

Credential them? Where is this command in the Bible?

It said they believed the Word and were baptized but did not receive the Holy Spirit. Why?

AWAKEN.....

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in:

1] Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, .....covenant nation

2]and in Samaria,......half covenant nation

3]and unto the uttermost part of the earth....non covenant nations.


Scripture is about REDEMPTION...NOT GIFTS

 

[awaken]

AWAKEN.....

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in:

1] Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, .....covenant nation

2]and in Samaria,......half covenant nation

3]and unto the uttermost part of the earth....non covenant nations.


Scripture is about REDEMPTION...NOT GIFTS

Where did I mention gifts?
I ask why didn't they receive the Holy Spirit when they believed and were baptized.

 

[Iconoclast]

Where did I mention gifts?
I ask why didn't they receive the Holy Spirit when they believed and were baptized.

I answered you....but you are obsessed with your agenda ...so the meaning of what you read...eludes you.:thumbsup:

The Apostles...were to be witnesses in these three people groups...to introduce them into the Kingdom....

 

[awaken]

I answered you....but you are obsessed with your agenda ...so the meaning of what you read...eludes you.:thumbsup:

The Apostles...were to be witnesses in these three people groups...to introduce them into the Kingdom....

I got that part but you avoided my question 3 times. WHY DIDN'T THEY RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WHEN THEY BELIEVED AND WERE BAPTIZED?

They were introduced into the Kingdom with Phillips preaching and they BELIEVED and were BAPTIZED. BUT....did not receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[DHK]

I got that part but you avoided my question 3 times. WHY DIDN'T THEY RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WHEN THEY BELIEVED AND WERE BAPTIZED?

They were introduced into the Kingdom with Phillips preaching and they BELIEVED and were BAPTIZED. BUT....did not receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:5 And Philip having gone down to a city of Samaria, was preaching to them the Christ,
6 the multitudes also were giving heed to the things spoken by Philip, with one accord, in their hearing and seeing the signs that he was doing,

Philip preached through the power of the Holy Spirit.
The multitudes heard the Word, and they saw the miracles that Philip did through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:7 for unclean spirits came forth from many who were possessed, crying with a loud voice, and many who have been paralytic and lame were healed,
--A record of other miracles performed by the Lord through Philip by the power of the Holy Spirit

Acts 8:8 and there was great joy in that city.
--The joy was a result of the salvation they had by believing in Christ. Once a person believes in Christ they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:12 And when they believed Philip, proclaiming good news, the things concerning the reign of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized both men and women;
--They believed and they were baptized. That is the order all the time in Scripture. When a person believes in the Lord Jesus he is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He has all of the Holy Spirit that he needs. That is why there is no other mention.

Acts 8:14 And the apostles in Jerusalem having heard that Samaria hath received the word of God, did send unto them Peter and John,
15 who having come down did pray concerning them, that they may receive the Holy Spirit, --
16 for as yet he was fallen upon none of them, and only they have been baptized--to the name of the Lord Jesus;
17 then were they laying hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
--This was purely symbolic. It was to show others that the Samaritans had received the gospel and that this was with apostolic authority. It is not the tongues here that made any difference, but the apostles themselves. All the apostles went down to Samaria and put their stamp of approval upon this revival that was happening now upon these people whom they had formerly hated. Who could say anything against it now that the apostles themselves had approved it.

There is basically no difference in this account then at Pentecost.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
--They heard the Word, believed the Word, were saved and baptized (in water).
That is what happened. There is no "baptism of the Holy Spirit" here. There is no speaking of tongue here--nada; zilch. They simply believed (were saved) and then obeyed in baptism.
The 3,000 that were saved never spoke in tongues.
In fact it doesn't even say that they were baptized in the Spirit!

 

[awaken]

Acts 8:5 And Philip having gone down to a city of Samaria, was preaching to them the Christ,
6 the multitudes also were giving heed to the things spoken by Philip, with one accord, in their hearing and seeing the signs that he was doing,

Philip preached through the power of the Holy Spirit.
The multitudes heard the Word, and they saw the miracles that Philip did through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:7 for unclean spirits came forth from many who were possessed, crying with a loud voice, and many who have been paralytic and lame were healed,
--A record of other miracles performed by the Lord through Philip by the power of the Holy Spirit

Acts 8:8 and there was great joy in that city.
--The joy was a result of the salvation they had by believing in Christ. Once a person believes in Christ they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:12 And when they believed Philip, proclaiming good news, the things concerning the reign of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized both men and women;
--They believed and they were baptized. That is the order all the time in Scripture. When a person believes in the Lord Jesus he is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He has all of the Holy Spirit that he needs. That is why there is no other mention.

Acts 8:14 And the apostles in Jerusalem having heard that Samaria hath received the word of God, did send unto them Peter and John,
15 who having come down did pray concerning them, that they may receive the Holy Spirit, --
16 for as yet he was fallen upon none of them, and only they have been baptized--to the name of the Lord Jesus;
17 then were they laying hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
--This was purely symbolic. It was to show others that the Samaritans had received the gospel and that this was with apostolic authority. It is not the tongues here that made any difference, but the apostles themselves. All the apostles went down to Samaria and put their stamp of approval upon this revival that was happening now upon these people whom they had formerly hated. Who could say anything against it now that the apostles themselves had approved it.

There is basically no difference in this account then at Pentecost.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
--They heard the Word, believed the Word, were saved and baptized (in water).
That is what happened. There is no "baptism of the Holy Spirit" here. There is no speaking of tongue here--nada; zilch. They simply believed (were saved) and then obeyed in baptism.
The 3,000 that were saved never spoke in tongues.
In fact it doesn't even say that they were baptized in the Spirit!

Did I mention tongues? NO! How was it symbolic when Simeon SAW something? Why would Simeon want something that was just symbolic? You are way off on this one!

It is plain that they were saved and baptized and did not receive the Holy Spirit!!

 

[Iconoclast]

I got that part but you avoided my question 3 times. WHY DIDN'T THEY RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WHEN THEY BELIEVED AND WERE BAPTIZED?

They were introduced into the Kingdom with Phillips preaching and they BELIEVED and were BAPTIZED. BUT....did not receive the Holy Spirit.

Earlier I said Acts is a transitional book.Several times there are accounts of Ot believers being transitioned into the Nt....like this
They believed as did OT saints, then were brought into the nt reality.

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

 

[DHK]

Did I mention tongues? NO! How was it symbolic when Simeon SAW something? Why would Simeon want something that was just symbolic? You are way off on this one!

It is plain that they were saved and baptized and did not receive the Holy Spirit!!

Acts 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

Obviously Simeon saw the power of the Holy Spirit, primarily in the preaching of Philip which was also attested by miracles and the casting out of demons. It is significant that in this case there were no tongues. The gospel went from Jerusalem, to Samaria, to the Gentiles (10) and to the world (19). This is the only case where tongues is not mentioned, a difficult case for those who believe tongues should be manifest every time the Holy Spirit is. Ain't so.

 

[awaken]

Acts 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

Obviously Simeon saw the power of the Holy Spirit, primarily in the preaching of Philip which was also attested by miracles and the casting out of demons. It is significant that in this case there were no tongues. The gospel went from Jerusalem, to Samaria, to the Gentiles (10) and to the world (19). This is the only case where tongues is not mentioned, a difficult case for those who believe tongues should be manifest every time the Holy Spirit is. Ain't so.

Are you still hung up on tongues? DId I say tongues were the manifestation?

If Simeon just saw it in the preaching..then he would not have wanted what the others had. You are grasping at straws here!