Is there a HAIR difference?

[Jim1999]

Laura, I read any number of translations, and yes, I read the NIV quite regularly, but I depend on my Greek New Testament for theological understanding.

Let me quote from Eerdman's Handbook. It gives the most precise understanding of this portion of Corinthians:

Quote: "No decent woman would appear unveiled in public at this time. . The veil guaranteed safety and respect in the streets. But there were differences in Greek and Hebrew custom when it came to prayer. Greek women, as well as men, prayed bareheaded. Roman and Jewish men and women prayed with their heads covered. The church needed a ruling.
The ruling Paul gave rested on the relative roles of men and women in the created order...............(4,5) The veil was a token of submission to another person; he should submit only to Christ,,then..dishonours her head: ie: her husband (3). By discarding the veil she discarded her husband's authority, as if she were a prostitute. Shorn or shaven (6) the punishment for a prostitute at that time.

end quote

The point is, this is a cultural edict and not a time enduring law passed upon the church en masse. It was peculiar to the church at Corinth, and was dealing with a local issue.

As customs change, so should we. Prostitutes to-day do not have their heads shaven. I think that they might want to look as attrative as possible....not that I have any experience in this area...but I should think this would be the case. Be attractive.

Again, the church does not need to attract any more attention that detracts from the gospel of grace than it does normally by its difference. I hear the ridicule poured upon the local Pentecostal Church which parades in long dresses and headcoverings, even whilst they drive tractors and do other things. It is sad that people should get that impression of Christianity.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Originally posted by katie Bond...007:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Long Hair on men is SIN.
Short hair on women is SIN

How long is too long?
How short is too short?
These verses do not tell us.


I've been thinking a lot about this verse,
1Cor 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?


Now when it says nature, what does it mean? The males of God's creation? What about lions? Male lions have all the hair, lots of long hair. So what does this verse mean when you consider creation? </font>[/QUOTE]I think it has to do more with the nature of men and women's hair. Women's hair is naturally longer and more luxurious then men. I know some men have nice hair too.

But, many men will usually go bald, whereas women do not go bald, (usually). I know some women do go bald but would you agree that it is mostly the men that go bald?

These are my thoughts on this particular passage

 

[wizofoz]

Is "shame" synonomous with "sin"?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

1Cor 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? Now when it says nature, what does it mean?

Katie: My Pastor explained this verse as meaning that nature has a natural hairline at the base of the neck and that is what men are to follow. I've never heard any other explanation.

As for women having short hair...I think it is fine as long as it is not short enough where someone has to guess if she is female or male.

HCL: The Bible says women are not to have their hair 'shorn' or shaven. When a sheep is sheared, it is pretty much bald. The definition of 'shorn' is 'sheared'. My hair is short but I am not shorn nor shaven so I think I'm okay.

Kelly Todd: You are correct. There is to be a distinct difference in the way men and women look and dress. However, that has so much more to do with the way they act than how they dress or wear their hair.

Plenty of lost women have long hair and plenty of lost men have short hair...this does not mean they are Godly.

Plenty of saved women have short hair and plenty of men have long hair...this does not mean that they are unGodly.

Sue

 

[donnA]

I think it has to do more with the nature of men and women's hair. Women's hair is naturally longer and more luxurious then men.

Oh no it isn't. You should see my husband's and son's hair, thick and luxurious, hair most women would die for, and curly, you've never seen anything like it, they can't get a comb through it.
Anyone hair grow can be long. You reply still does not answer my question.
I see a lot of women going bald. At least half the women I see have thining hair, scalp is visiable, adn with soem you could say some hair is visiable. That still does not answer my question.


Sue, on the hair length, once again that is only a persons opinion of a verse that is not clear. Opinions on this verse are plentiful. It tells us to look to nature. Which is God's creations. I think it measn more then the back of the neck. ANd if that were true, then as long as a womens hair was longer then that natural hair line on the back of her nweck, then her hair is long.
I think there is a reason it does not tell how long it too long on a man adn how short is too short on a woman(or actually it does tell us how short is too short for a woman, shaved is too short, it says nothing more about her hair length.)

People too many times take a verse like this, that is not as clear as they would like it to be and then just make up whats missing, like how many inches a persons hair should be. When you start doing that then it is legalism. You just filed in the spots for God, he missed something, left out just how long your hair should or should not be, so you thought you'd help Him.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:

Plenty of lost women have long hair and plenty of lost men have short hair...this does not mean they are Godly.

Plenty of saved women have short hair and plenty of men have long hair...this does not mean that they are unGodly.

Sue

I agree, that is why the Christian woman ought to cover her head when she prays and prophesies to be distinguished from the unsaved.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Originally posted by wizofoz:
Is "shame" synonomous with "sin"?

My question is why would a born again Christian want to do something that God calls a shame? He has said in His Word that it is shame for men to have long hair, then it is a shame. And He has said it is a shame for a woman to have shorn (cut off), or shaven hair. Then it is a shame.

I think the problem we have today, is that it is not longer seen as a shame to do these things. Even in "Bible believing" churches.

 

[donnA]

We need a lot more to distinguish us as chritian then a covered head, and most unsaved do not have so much trouble distinguishing the saved even when their heads are not covered. Our very life style and manner shoud distinguish us, set us apart from the unsaved world. Even muslin women cover their heads, but it does not distinguish them as being chrisitans. If we reason that a covered head sets a woman apart from the world and distinguishs her as being christian, then muslin women must be accepted as christian women.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Katie,
I agree that LOVE is what distinguishes us from the unsaved. That is how they know, because we love one another.

But, the veiled head is a sign for the angels too vs. 10 who observe the Christian woman pray or prophesy and they know who she is.

In my personal experience though that my veiled head has caused the unsaved to ask me what I believe on many occassions.

[ June 13, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Headcoveredlady ]

 

[wizofoz]

Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wizofoz:
Is "shame" synonomous with "sin"?

My question is why would a born again Christian want to do something that God calls a shame? He has said in His Word that it is shame for men to have long hair, then it is a shame. And He has said it is a shame for a woman to have shorn (cut off), or shaven hair. Then it is a shame.

I think the problem we have today, is that it is not longer seen as a shame to do these things. Even in "Bible believing" churches. </font>[/QUOTE]That didn't answer the question.
The Bible says it's a shame for a man to have long hair. It doesn't say how long it's supposed to be. It doesn't say it's a sin to have long hair.
It would be a shame to go a week without brushing one's teeth, but is it a sin to do that?

When someone says it's a sin to have long hair, it's their interpretation of the scriptures. They should state such, instead of boldly touting that it's God's final word on it.

 

[PJ]

I Corinthians 11:
14   Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15   But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16   But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

See how verse 16 so naturally ties in?

My interpretation only; not intended to undermine anyone's personal convictions ...

PJ

[ June 13, 2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: PJ ]

 

[Thankful]

I'm on the way out the door to get a haircut.

My husband says that it is all right and further my hair is longer than his.

Seriously, this has been discussed many times. Perhaps someone would list some of the threads.

I believe that the length of hair was a cultural problem at the time of Paul.

If a woman wants to follow this rule in our time, then that is fine, but please don't tell the rest of us that we are sinning because we do not have long hair and wear a headcovering. My head is covered by my husband's authority.

I have yet to see anyone make fun of women with long hair or head coverings. When we were in the Vancouver Airport, there were several women of all ages wearing headcoverings and dresses, they were treated no differently than any of the other women. The one thing I noticed was that these women had a look of sadness not joy. Perhaps there was a sad reason for their trip.

Jim1999 has expressed the reasons for these scriptures very wisely and with knowledge and experience.

 

[hsmom3]

This is an honest question on my part...not trying to stir up anything. How can we know what is cultural in the Bible and what is not?

Thank you!
hsmom3

 

[Jim1999]

This is an honest question on my part...not trying to stir up anything. How can we know what is cultural in the Bible and what is not?
__________________________________________________

HSMom, We study archeology and history of the period, and cultural studies as collected from writings left behind by people earlier than ourselves. These are extra-biblical sources.

To rightly understand scripture, we must have some idea about how people lived at the time, and what was prevalent in their cultures. This too, is a proper application of hermeneutics....the study of the Word. We must know who is speaking and to whom, the cultural background, the immediate application and the eternal truths in modern application.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Jailminister:
Oh Really, Johnv.
How many other commandments are options.

I take it you keep the Sabbath Day holy according to God's law, then. Resting from Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown.

I take it you also refrain from pork, as well as the consumption of flesh and dairy products.

You also will never sit in a chair that has been used by a menstruating woman.

And if you see something that offends you, you'll of course pluck your eye out.

And while we're at it, men who wear kilts are in sin, since they are technically wearing dresses.

 

[donnA]

But, the veiled head is a sign for the angels too vs. 10 who observe the Christian woman pray or prophesy and they know who she is

What kind of sign? It doesn't say. I am sure the angles are not confused as to who is a christiana dn who is not, no matter whats on their heads. If they are looking whats on a person head to see if they are a christian, then they have to identify muslin women as christians. Since we know muslin women are not christians, we can know they aren't identifying us as christians based on whats on our head.
And I've been asked about christianity also, with no veil on my head. They didn't have to guess if I were a christian or muslin by haveing my head covered, but they knew because of who I am in Christ.

I'd also like to say, that although I do not veil,and probably never will(unless God Himself convinces me), I do n t see a problem with you doing it. I am not debating whether or not you should do it, I do not see woemn who do veil as legalist. I do see it as legalism when some of them tell other christian women they have to in order to be pleasing to God.
Just so you'll know I'm not attacking you.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
He has said in His Word that it is shame for men to have long hair, then it is a shame. And He has said it is a shame for a woman to have shorn (cut off), or shaven hair. Then it is a shame.

Actually, God didn't say it, Paul said it. It's up to us to discern the big picture of what Paul was referring to.

Without discernment, all men who are not circumcised are living a life of sin.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Johnv:

Originally posted by Jailminister:
[qb] Oh Really, Johnv.
How many other commandments are options.

And while we're at it, men who wear kilts are in sin, since they are technically wearing dresses.

Ouch! Now ya had to go and make in personal Laddie!

It's not a dress, it's not dress, it's not a dress...

 

[LauraB]

I only have one more thing to add and then I will quietly walk away.

2 words---- KING JAMES

 

[Jim1999]

King James? Now we know he had longish hair, and it was curled. Mind you, under his crown, it didn't really matter. After all, he was the king.

Cheers,

Jim