Is there a HAIR difference?

[Pastor Larry]

Laura,

You should have stopped short of those two words because they are irrelevant. All teh versions says essentially the same thing. The KJV does not define the shortness or longness of hair.

To John, this verse is not a part of the Law. It has nothing to do with the Law. We as NT believers are no longer under the Law. But that has nothing to do with this verse. Additionally, when Paul wrote Scripture, he was writing the words of God. The distinction between Paul's words and God's words is a false dichotomy. It does not belong in serious theological discussions.

 

[Kelly Todd]

You are correct. There is to be a distinct difference in the way men and women look and dress. However, that has so much more to do with the way they act than how they dress or wear their hair.

Plenty of lost women have long hair and plenty of lost men have short hair...this does not mean they are Godly.

Plenty of saved women have short hair and plenty of men have long hair...this does not mean that they are unGodly.

I AM BLESSED 16

I not sure if the point I was making was understood. The context of the passage is lost when only looking at verse 13 & 14.

Simply whether or not a womans hair is long or short, covered or uncovered, does not matter. What matters is how Christian men and women present themselves.

My point was the Principle , God wants Christian men tobe lovingly authoritative and Christian women to be lovingly submisive. We can show this by how we present ourselves. In Early NT times that was through long hair and head Coverings. Today it is something else.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
...The distinction between Paul's words and God's words is a false dichotomy. It does not belong in serious theological discussions.

I understand what you're getting at, and I didn't mean to imply that Paul's words were not of value. The point I was getting at is that there's a difference between, for example, the Ten Commandments, which are given directly by God to all followers of Him in perpetuity (incuding today), and the words of Paul, who is addressing a specific church, for a specific purpose, at a specific time. It's important to us to use discernment to find out what the intent of his writings were, not just what the letter of the words were. Without that discernment, we end up, as Jesus says, following the letter, but violate the spirit, of what was written.

PS - I assume you have no problems with kilts??

 

[Jailminister]

Johnv made an interesting remark. He said these are the words of Paul, not God. HUMMMM I thought God INSPIRED the whole Bible, not just the words in RED

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Johnv:
The point I was getting at is that there's a difference between, for example, the Ten Commandments, which are given directly by God to all followers of Him in perpetuity (incuding today), and the words of Paul, who is addressing a specific church, for a specific purpose, at a specific time.

[/q]bYou would be hardpressed to show from SCripture that the 10 commandments were not given to a specific people for a specific purpose for a specific time. They are not "commands in perpetuity" as the 10 Commandments. 9 of the 10 are repeated in teh NT for NT believers. But they hold sway over us because they are repeated. The Decalogue was a part of teh Mosaic Law that Christ put an end to. While this is a technical distinction it is nonetheless a biblical one. Let's not confuse things here.

As fo the value of Paul's words, there are absolutely as authoritative as the 10 commandments, provided that they, liek the 10 commandments, are rightly interpreted and rightly applied.

[qb]PS - I assume you have no problems with kilts??

They really don't flatter my legs ...

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Jailminister:
Johnv made an interesting remark. He said these are the words of Paul, not God. HUMMMM I thought God INSPIRED the whole Bible, not just the words in RED

He INSPIRED the Bible, he did not DICTATE it. God inspired it, Paul dictated it. It's important for us to find out what God is telling us via the words Paul wrote. Hence, the need for discernment.

Let's not forget, we worship God, not the Bible. The two are not interchangeable. I don't think it is disrespectful to God for us to remember that.

[ June 13, 2003, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Hsmom,
Headship is never cultural. The underlying principle or should I say the main point of 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 is God's order of government and the symbols that represent His headship order.

Katie,
In verse six it says that a woman is to cover when praying or prophesying and then in verse ten it says that the woman ought to have this symbol on her head because of the angels.


Angels are not omniscient as God is. They cannot see the heart. When the first born babies were killed by the death angel in Eygpt the Lord told the Israelites to put blood upon the doorposts so that the angels could see a visible sign. In my opinion this has similar meaning.

I am not sure what all of the implications are. But, if God saw fit to include that angels have something to do with this visible sign it made me think that there is something very significant about the headship veiling.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Originally posted by Kelly Todd:
[

Simply whether or not a womans hair is long or short, covered or uncovered, does not matter. What matters is how Christian men and women present themselves.

My point was the Principle , God wants Christian men tobe lovingly authoritative and Christian women to be lovingly submisive. We can show this by how we present ourselves. In Early NT times that was through long hair and head Coverings. Today it is something else. [/QB]

Really, what Bible verse are your using to support this assertion?

 

[davidpace]

Well, you are entitled to your legalism. The gospel has set me free, and if HE has set me free, then I am free, indeed.

Historical records show men with long hair. Paul is talking about the difference between godly women and the prostitutes of the day, whose heads were shorn. Cultures change, and so do we. You are NOT a witness to Christianity by dressing back to other times, YOU are a witness by your life and what flows from your mouth. Why do some insist on making an anachronism of Christianity?

Cheers,

Jim

If this is true, then I could walk around with a mohawk, and chains hanging from neck. I mean, as long as I told people about Jesus. Right?

Wrong!

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

This not only deals with speech, but also personal appearance. If you dress like the World, your fruit will be of the World.

I believe that the subject of hair is a good subject. I believe that women are to have long hair and men short hair. We do this as a personal sacrifice. In other words, we make our bodies a living sacrifice.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

When we wear our hair according to the Bible, we are making our bodies a living sacrifice.

Also, if Paul wrote this to the church in Corinth only, then why was it even in the Bible. I mean, if you believe this, then you must believe that the Bible is simply a book of stories that have no relevance on today's society.

Sorry, but I take the stand that good ol' Joshua made. "but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

My wife and I are able to be a witness by our dress, our speech, and our lives. I don't believe that we should just focus on 1 these 3 important avenues of witnessing. In other words, our speech may be great, but if we dress like the world.... I hope you follow.

 

[dianetavegia]

Davidpace said:

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

This not only deals with speech, but also personal appearance. If you dress like the World, your fruit will be of the World.

Matthew 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. 6 Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces. 7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. 13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because F32 narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. 15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Sorry David. Their speech and appearance??? This has NO mention of clothing or speech but fruits!

To aid Christians in their walk before the Lord, God-given wisdom is made available to them, wisdom whose "fruit is better than fine gold" (Prov 8:19), and the Holy Spirit develops within Christians the fruit of "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control" (Gal 5:22-23). Thus, with the enablement of the Holy Spirit, the Christian can flourish "like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season" (Psalm 1:3). John the Baptist and Jesus teach that the disciple is to produce fruit (good works) as evidence of true repentance (Matt 3:8; Luke 3:8), and they explain that a good tree (the repentant individual) cannot produce bad fruit, that is, a life filled with wicked Acts, and a bad tree (an unrepentant person) cannot produce good fruit, that is, a life of godly works (Matt 3:10; 7:16-20; Luke 3:9; 6:43).

Diane Tavegia

 

[Charlotte Marcel]

Originally posted by Gib:
Didn't we beat this horse to death just a few weeks ago?

This dead horse will be beaten until it is dust. You know that Gib...most of us do. But we must allow people who haven't discussed this a million times to discuss it no?

HCL I offer this scripture in response to your post. "So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in this brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Rom. 14:12-14

If you think a woman having short hair is unclean...or a sin, then it probably is...to you. So yes, since you believe that , you should have long hair.

Now, I don't have short hair, I have always had long hair. But if I didn't trim it it would get caught in the wheels of my wheelchair and it would get too heavy. It's already so heavy I can't wear it up or I get a terrible tension headache. So I keep it trimmed short of sitting on it.

But I don't think that a woman who has shorter hair, is being disobedient to God. I think that that is something that each woman has to decide for herself, according to her own belief.

You may disagree...your perogative of course...I however think he has much more important things on his mind then how we decide to show our faith outwardly to others by what we do with our earthly bodies exterior.

God Bless you,
Charlotte

 

[Gib]

In all of the hair debates that have been on this board, (and we love those hair topics) no one has been able to show any scripture that supports how we determine what length is too long and or too short.

If I had a 1 inch mohawk, it would be short and not long. If my hair touches the back of my collar, many would say it's too long. If my wife's hair just touched her collar, many would say it's too short. Can a man's hair be too short or a ladies hair to long?

Is there a formula or hair template we can use to get that just right hair length.

 

[Charlesga]

The most important aspect is someone's walk with Christ, and I dare say that someone's walk and relationship cannot be determined based on length of hair, no hair, mohawk, blue hair, green hair etc. Let's ask ourselves this question: Would Jesus be very concerned about someone's length of hair? I don't know how we could answer yes to that question. He is much more concerned with the heart than the hair, in my opinion.

I do respect the right of people to disagree, but for this to be such a divisive issue and one that determines whether or not we have fellowship with others is a ridiculous notion.

Charles

 

[Kelly Todd]

Really, what Bible verse are your using to support this assertion?

Headcoveredlady
We will have to disagree on the principle of the passage. I believe Paul uses the customs of Corinth to demonstrate how Authority and Submission were shown.

That is all I can say, I know I will not change your mind. My understanding of the passage is diffrent than yours. If you want to cover your head, go for it, I would never discourage anyone who wants to show submission in that way. But, I don't think we can condemn others for their convictions.

God Bless, I am done beating a decomposing horse.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

For me personally I see this as an important part of Scripture (all of it is) that is overlooked. It is not taught in the churches very often. And it is not practiced. It is there in the Bible in the New Testament.

 

[Jim1999]

Your views are not taught from Baptist pulpits because it is neither scriptural nor mandated in the New Testament. It was cultural specific at best, and limited to Corinth, addressing a specific problem.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Istherenotacause]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jailminister:
Johnv made an interesting remark. He said these are the words of Paul, not God. HUMMMM I thought God INSPIRED the whole Bible, not just the words in RED

He INSPIRED the Bible, he did not DICTATE it. God inspired it, Paul dictated it. It's important for us to find out what God is telling us via the words Paul wrote. Hence, the need for discernment.

Let's not forget, we worship God, not the Bible. The two are not interchangeable. I don't think it is disrespectful to God for us to remember that. </font>[/QUOTE]So what is YOUR source of extra-biblical reference YOU use to determine what is of God and what is dictated?

The Holy Ghost inspired/dictated the Word of God.

Methinks thou havest thy problems discerning the things of the Spirit as indicated by YOUR problem calling the Apostle Paul a dictator.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

I'm sorry I missed the verse that told me it was cultural. That is because there is none. Sorry, no offense Jim1999, but the Word says to do it and I will continue to do it even if it is never allowed to be spoken of again, which seems the pattern in churches I have been in. It seems to be the unopened, untalked about, shut passage of Scripture.

 

[Jim1999]

One of the dangers we face everyday is unqualfied people interpreting the scriptures without observing the basic rules for interpretation. It is rather strange that 1000's of Baptist ministers and theologians, students of Greek and Hebrew have so sorely missed this all important passage in scripture, yet you and a handful untrained in hermeneutics have uncovered the mystery.

Methinks there is something wrong in Denmark, and it is not in the pulpit.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Well that is quite interesting because of all the many commentaries I read show that the woman is to wear a literal headcovering, such as Ungers and Haleys. Also in Vines Expository and many writings from church fathers show the same thing.

But, even if it were not for them the Bible and the Holy Spirit is enough for me. Sound very Catholic what you are proposing.