Is there a retitle suggestion for Calvinism and Arminianism

[plain_n_simple]

So, I would take from your statement that you are in full agreement with the Arminian thinking?

Would that not lead you to embrace the view that if one has freedom of choice, then it follows that in all matters of faith and practice they may choose what to accept and what to reject?

Would you agree with the typical Nazarene or Church of God/pentecostal folks who consider one may choose to be saved and then choose to be lost, and then choose to be saved to later choose to be lost...

Would you agree that "chosen in him before the foundations of the world" is not included in the scriptures, or that "whom he did foreknow he predestinated to be conformed to the image of his son..." needs erased?

Your post would indicate that you mock the teaching of election and predestination that the Scriptures clearly teach.

Perhaps you are like a famous evangelist now long dead that told me that salvation is like going through a gate. On one side is a sign that says, "whosoever will" but on the other side it is displayed, "chosen in him..."

I disagree with such attempts of these pretzel bending gymnastic views.

No, I am not Arminian. I know nothing of him, but will study him shortly as I've just been introduced to the heretic John Calvin.

Your post would indicate that you mock the teaching of election and predestination that the Scriptures clearly teach.

No. I mock John Calvin and his followers. You presume his teachings are correct, I do not.

I disagree with such attempts of these pretzel bending gymnastic views.

I do not care what you think, nor do I care what you do with pretzels.

 

[OldRegular]

Election conditioned upon faith in the truth is what scripture teaches.

Election conditioned on faith is not election!

 

[OldRegular]

I still like DoG (for Doctrines of Grace).

I am partial to Doctrine of Grace also!

 

[convicted1]

To answer the OP's title:


Man-made theology Volumes I & II

 

[convicted1]

a TULIP By any other name would smell. . .

.......like fertilizer? :laugh: j/k my Calvinst Brethern.....

 

[convicted1]

No, I am not Arminian. I know nothing of him, but will study him shortly as I've just been introduced to the heretic John Calvin.

Your post would indicate that you mock the teaching of election and predestination that the Scriptures clearly teach.

No. I mock John Calvin and his followers. You presume his teachings are correct, I do not.

I disagree with such attempts of these pretzel bending gymnastic views.

I do not care what you think, nor do I care what you do with pretzels.

Hey!! I like pretzels!! So I do care what he does with his pretzels....:laugh:

 

[glfredrick]

The problem with that is it kind of masquerades your view while trying to claim a monopoly on the word “grace”, you guys need to get out there in the open with what you are actually preaching, I think the “Doctrines of Deterministic Pre-selected Grace” is a much more honest approach.

How so? "Calvinism" DEPENDS solely on God's grace. There is no action of man that can move the hand of God.

Sounds to me like you have a bone to pick (duh...) with those who see the Doctrines of Grace as scriptural. Perhaps you have a bone to pick with God... :wavey:

 

[glfredrick]

No, I am not Arminian. I know nothing of him, but will study him shortly as I've just been introduced to the heretic John Calvin.

Your post would indicate that you mock the teaching of election and predestination that the Scriptures clearly teach.

No. I mock John Calvin and his followers. You presume his teachings are correct, I do not.

I disagree with such attempts of these pretzel bending gymnastic views.

I do not care what you think, nor do I care what you do with pretzels.

You should actually read some of Calvin's Commentaries then report back about his heresy. I'm sure that would be helpful for all the other people around here who don't have the time or the inclination to back up substantial claims like the one you have just made. :wavey:

It might also be helpful if you would lay out your own doctrine in a positive manner -- tell us what you believe and from whence it derives. That would also be helpful. Much more helpful than snipping away at what others believe.

 

[glfredrick]

To answer the OP's title:


Man-made theology Volumes I & II

All theology is derived by man FROM exegesis of Scripture.

God did not hand down a "study of God." WE study God and formulate doctrines, inferences, theories, and the like based on what we read in the Word.

You have a weird view of what theology actually is, and you also fail to note that your statement is a theological statement!

I know that you are trying to be pious and to stick to just the Word of God, but that IS what theology IS. How else can we study God unless we study the Word that He revealed to us?

And, yes, I do know that some men have attempted to derive some doctrines about God without studying God's Word -- they know nothing more than what has been revealed in the general revelation of God's creation. Of these, Plato, Greek philosopher of repute, has best nailed what can be discerned from a study of general revelation concerning the evidence for God in the world -- apart from an actual study of the revealed text. That is why Plato is often cited in context when considering the claims of God on this world. Plato (or any other human philosopher) is not to be taken above the revealed scriptures of God -- God forbid -- but they do inform us as to what can be seen from the general revelation of creation instead of the specific revelation that is the Word of God.

 

[jbh28]

Classic Arminians - Those who believe a True Christian can forfeit (but not lose) their salvation. There are variations within this group such as the FreeWill Baptist who believe that you can only forfeit your salvation once, the others believe God will take you back anytime you repent. The Remonstrant group would be considered Classic Arminians.

Are you distinguishing between "lose" and "forfeit" by forfeit meaning that one would give up his salvation and lose would be taken because of something?

 

[drfuss]

Classic Arminians - Those who believe a True Christian can forfeit (but not lose) their salvation. There are variations within this group such as the FreeWill Baptist who believe that you can only forfeit your salvation once, the others believe God will take you back anytime you repent. The Remonstrant group would be considered Classic Arminians.

Wesleyan Arminians - Those who believe a True Christian can also lose their salvation by long time resisting the conviction of the Holy Spirit from known sins in their lives. Their are variations within this group.

jbh28 asked:
"Are you distinguishing between "lose" and "forfeit" by forfeit meaning that one would give up his salvation and lose would be taken because of something?"

Forfeiting one's salvation means a Christian makes a decision to stop trusting in Christ: such as converting to the Muslim religion, becoming an Atheist. etc. Sins or works have nothing to do with it.

Losing one's salvation means a Christian is still trusting in Christ for salvation, but resists the conviction of the Holy Spirit over a long period of time. An example would be refusing to forgive someone after being convicted by the Holy Spirit, over a period of say 10 years, to forgive that person. The Wesleyan Arminians would say that person is in danger of losing their salvation even though they are still trusting in Christ for salvation.

Of course, most who believe in the doctrine of eternal security, would say these people were not True Christians in the first place.

 

[Skandelon]

There is no action of man that can move the hand of God.

Not even his hand of wrath?

"And God regretted having creating them...and His anger burned against them" etc

And if God has himself chosen to move in response to his Children's requests, that too is His sovereign prerogative, isn't it?

"The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."

 

[Van]

That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.

Hi Benjamin, lets take this one assertion at a time, shall we?


We are not incorporated into Christ by faith, we are placed into Christ by God when the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ, based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5, and 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Logically then we cannot get out of Christ if we did not put us into Christ by some myterious automatic transfer. But can we turn our back on our faith and devotion to Christ? Not if we are actually saved, born again if you will. 1 Peter 1:3-5. God protects our faith, thereby keeping us for our inheritance.

Certainly salvation includes earning rewards, and we can lose salvation (rewards) but what we cannot lose entry into heaven, entering as one escaping from a fire bring little or nothing with them. However, because our faith is protected, we will endure to the end.

 

[Greektim]

Back to the OP...

How about monergism and synergism?

 

[jbh28]

Classic Arminians - Those who believe a True Christian can forfeit (but not lose) their salvation. There are variations within this group such as the FreeWill Baptist who believe that you can only forfeit your salvation once, the others believe God will take you back anytime you repent. The Remonstrant group would be considered Classic Arminians.

Wesleyan Arminians - Those who believe a True Christian can also lose their salvation by long time resisting the conviction of the Holy Spirit from known sins in their lives. Their are variations within this group.

jbh28 asked:
"Are you distinguishing between "lose" and "forfeit" by forfeit meaning that one would give up his salvation and lose would be taken because of something?"

Forfeiting one's salvation means a Christian makes a decision to stop trusting in Christ: such as converting to the Muslim religion, becoming an Atheist. etc. Sins or works have nothing to do with it.

Losing one's salvation means a Christian is still trusting in Christ for salvation, but resists the conviction of the Holy Spirit over a long period of time. An example would be refusing to forgive someone after being convicted by the Holy Spirit, over a period of say 10 years, to forgive that person. The Wesleyan Arminians would say that person is in danger of losing their salvation even though they are still trusting in Christ for salvation.

Of course, most who believe in the doctrine of eternal security, would say these people were not True Christians in the first place.

thanks, we have a lot of Freewill Baptist around here. It's good to know correctly what they believe. I've been guilty of aligning them up with the losing salvation side.

 

[Amy.G]

Forfeiting one's salvation means a Christian makes a decision to stop trusting in Christ: such as converting to the Muslim religion, becoming an Atheist. etc. Sins or works have nothing to do with it.

I have seen this happen. Most people will say that the person was never saved, but I have seen the fruit of salvation in people and then later they gave up the faith and decided God did not even exist.

I don't know what to think about it. I know as a good Baptist I should believe OSAS, but in real life, it's a different story. It confuses me. Any thoughts? Is there anybody here that believes a person can forfeit their salvation? What about all the warnings in the bible to not turn from the faith?

 

[Iconoclast]

How so? "Calvinism" DEPENDS solely on God's grace. There is no action of man that can move the hand of God.

Sounds to me like you have a bone to pick (duh...) with those who see the Doctrines of Grace as scriptural. Perhaps you have a bone to pick with God... :wavey:

:thumbsup::thumbs::thumbsup: correct observation!

 

[Iconoclast]

I have seen this happen. Most people will say that the person was never saved, but I have seen the fruit of salvation in people and then later they gave up the faith and decided God did not even exist.

I don't know what to think about it. I know as a good Baptist I should believe OSAS, but in real life, it's a different story. It confuses me. Any thoughts? Is there anybody here that believes a person can forfeit their salvation? What about all the warnings in the bible to not turn from the faith?

19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

I know as a good Baptist I should believe OSAS, but in real life, it's a different story.

OSAs is a false teaching...perserverance of the saints is biblical.

the difference is -osas- was based on saying anyone who professes Jesus will be saved...no matter how they live,or what they say later on.

biblical perserverance says that God will continue to work in his elect, from start to finish.

6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )


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Chapter 18 "Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation"
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[agedman]

OSAs is a false teaching...perserverance of the saints is biblical.

the difference is -osas- was based on saying anyone who professes Jesus will be saved...no matter how they live,or what they say later on.

biblical perserverance says that God will continue to work in his elect, from start to finish.

I am not certain that Once Saved Always Saved is any different than Perseverance of the saved.

I have always contended that "by their fruits ("fruit of the Spirit is ...") you shall know them"

It isn't a problem with the OSAS as a statement, it is a problem with those who would hold to any hope that someone who "made a profession of faith" and "lives like the devil" is actually saved.

I hate funerals, and especially those in which it is expected to put about statements that all is well with the deceased when you know by the historical evidence of their life there was no fruit.

A person who is truly saved will most certainly acknowledge Christ as Lord and though there may be emotional, physical, psychological issues will continue in the faith. There will be evidence that the fruit of the Spirit is both present and remains.

 

[Van]

The actual idea of once saved always saved is if you are actually saved, which is different from professing Christ, a person is always saved and cannot lose salvation. As far as persevering we have two issues, a person may backslide or get sidetracked such that they produce little or no fruit, but still in their heart of hearts belief Jesus is their savior and they love Him. OTOH, we could know professing Christians who teach and engage in public prayer and so forth, but are simply whitewashed hypocrites who give lip service to the Lord. These face Matthew chapter 7.

But note Christ's words, I never knew you. He did not say, I knew you once, but I lost you. The real problem is Arminians think if they profess Christ, they are "automatically saved" when scripture says God saves us monergistically, He credits our faith as righteousness, or not, and then places us in Christ, we do not put ourselves in Christ.