Is there a "universal" church?

[OldRegular]

OF COURCE there is a universal church.

The members of the universal church consist of...

All of the saved people here on earth, and all of the saved in heaven.
Collectivly, they are the (universal church.)



They are identified in Hebrews 12 and it Revelation 7

Praise God!

Makes sense to me!:laugh::laugh: Actually it makes a whole lot of sense!

 

[Yeshua1]

Makes sense to me!:laugh::laugh: Actually it makes a whole lot of sense!

and each on of the saved persons here on earth are expected to become members of a good bible believing local church, prerferably baptist!

 

[OldRegular]

and each on of the saved persons here on earth are expected to become members of a good bible believing local church, prerferably baptist!

Made sense to me and still makes sense to me!

 

[DHK]

Universal church just the chrsitians saved by grace of God, spiritually united with jesus, and who also are suppossed to become members of the local church...

Why are adamant in this view when so much Scripture is presented to you that you don't even try to refute. You just keep saying the same thing over and over again.

 

[Yeshua1]

Why are adamant in this view when so much Scripture is presented to you that you don't even try to refute. You just keep saying the same thing over and over again.

Just something to mull over here!

Ten items that the Scriptures speak of the universal church (from Mark Copeland)

a. Composed of all Christians
b. There is just one
c. Began on the Day of Pentecost
d. Enter only by being added by the Lord
e. The Lord keeps the books of membership
f. Consists of all the saved
g. Must be in this to be saved
h. Has no earthly organization
i. Can't be divided
j. Death doesn't affect membership


John 15:2 (NKJV)
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Acts 11:15 (NKJV)
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.
[In reference to ANOTHER congregation being formed.]

Acts 2:47 (NKJV)
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Romans 11:19–22 (NKJV)
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore ...

Ephesians 1:22–23 (NKJV)
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 2:19–22 (NKJV)
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief ...

Ephesians 4:4 (NKJV)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 5:23 (NKJV)
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Ephesians 5:25–27 (NKJV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle ...

1 Thessalonians 5:10 (NKJV)
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

2 Timothy 2:19 (NKJV)
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

Hebrews 12:22–24 (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just ...

1 Peter 2:5 (NKJV)
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Tom Butler]

OF COURCE there is a universal church.

The members of the universal church consist of...

All of the saved people here on earth, and all of the saved in heaven.
Collectivly, they are the (universal church.)



They are identified in Hebrews 12 and it Revelation 7

Praise God!

Hebrews 12:22

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

The church of the first born is an assembly. In Heaven. If it doesn't assemble, it's not a church. There can be no Universal Church on earth, since it doesn't assemble. Only local churches assemble.

The picture John paints in Revelation 7 is that of an assembly. In heaven.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hebrews 12:22

The church of the first born is an assembly. In Heaven. If it doesn't assemble, it's not a church. There can be no Universal Church on earth, since it doesn't assemble. Only local churches assemble.

The picture John paints in Revelation 7 is that of an assembly. In heaven.

that is the picture of the Universal church fully together in heaven, right now its members are split between heaven and earth!

 

[DHK]

Just something to mull over here!

Ten items that the Scriptures speak of the universal church (from Mark Copeland)

a. Composed of all Christians

So is the family of God, and the kingdom, but the "church" excludes OT believers.

b. There is just one

There is only one family of God.

c. Began on the Day of Pentecost

God's family began with Adam.

d. Enter only by being added by the Lord

Thus it is with the family of God.

e. The Lord keeps the books of membership

So he does with his own family.

f. Consists of all the saved

That is what a child of God is, one of his own.

g. Must be in this to be saved

A child of God is saved, a part of his family.

h. Has no earthly organization

Neither does God's family.

i. Can't be divided

God's family is not divided.

j. Death doesn't affect membership

God's family doesn't need membership, only a new birth.

John 15:2 (NKJV)
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

And....

Acts 11:15 (NKJV)
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.
[In reference to ANOTHER congregation being formed.]

Yes, it was. Another assembly was being formed.

Acts 2:47 (NKJV)
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

The church at Jerusalem grew rapidly.

Romans 11:19–22 (NKJV)
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore ...

What do chapters explaining Israel's role in the last times have to do with local churches?

Ephesians 1:22–23 (NKJV)
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Here the word "assembly" is used in a generic sense. That is a singular noun used to represent a plurality of things.
Does a woman love her husband?
Which woman? Which husband? (Joe, John, Jeremy, Joshua, Jim?) Which husband is the woman (and we don't know which woman is being referred to) loves which husband. The statement is generic.
Even if you add a name to one of them: Mary loves her husband. Which one? We don't know, not if we don't know who Mary is. These are generic terms that represent many people.
Man has sinned. Which man?
Christ loved the church. Which church? It is a generic word meaning all the Biblically based local churches. It was written to the church at Ephesus, and that is how the Ephesians would have understood it, for the word "church" would not have been in their vocabulary. The word was "assembly." Christ loved their assembly.

Ephesians 2:19–22 (NKJV)
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief ...

--This is very specific to the church at Ephesus and should be applied to every Bible believing church. The foundation of our church is the Scriptures which are written by the apostles and prophets. The cornerstone of the foundation is Christ. That fact is reiterated over and over again in Scripture. Every member of every church adds to the building of that church. This cannot refer to anything but a local church. The same illustration is given in more detail in 1Cor.11.

Ephesians 4:4 (NKJV)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

Absolutely. Written to the Ephesian church, they were one body, united by one Spirit, called on one hope of one calling. It reflects the unity of the church at Ephesus, as it should with every local church.

Ephesians 5:23 (NKJV)
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Which husband and which wife, and which church? The church was the one at Ephesus, and representative of all churches just like the husband and wife are representative of all married couples.

Ephesians 5:25–27 (NKJV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle ...

See above explanation.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 (NKJV)
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

And so we should.

2 Timothy 2:19 (NKJV)
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

Check 1John 2:19. There were false teachers that entered into every place. But God knows them that are his.

Hebrews 12:22–24 (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just ...

This does speak of an assembly, an heavenly one; the one time when all believers will meet together as a "universal church" in heaven but not on earth. On earth it is an impossibility.

1 Peter 2:5 (NKJV)
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

All of us are priests. Peter wasn't addressing a local church. He was addressing suffering believers that were of the diaspora. Everyone of us are to offer up (as the family of God, and as priests before God) spiritual sacrifices.

 

[Yeshua1]

So is the family of God, and the kingdom, but the "church" excludes OT believers.

There is only one family of God.

God's family began with Adam.

Thus it is with the family of God.

So he does with his own family.

That is what a child of God is, one of his own.

A child of God is saved, a part of his family.

Neither does God's family.

God's family is not divided.

God's family doesn't need membership, only a new birth.

And....

Yes, it was. Another assembly was being formed.

The church at Jerusalem grew rapidly.


What do chapters explaining Israel's role in the last times have to do with local churches?

Here the word "assembly" is used in a generic sense. That is a singular noun used to represent a plurality of things.
Does a woman love her husband?
Which woman? Which husband? (Joe, John, Jeremy, Joshua, Jim?) Which husband is the woman (and we don't know which woman is being referred to) loves which husband. The statement is generic.
Even if you add a name to one of them: Mary loves her husband. Which one? We don't know, not if we don't know who Mary is. These are generic terms that represent many people.
Man has sinned. Which man?
Christ loved the church. Which church? It is a generic word meaning all the Biblically based local churches. It was written to the church at Ephesus, and that is how the Ephesians would have understood it, for the word "church" would not have been in their vocabulary. The word was "assembly." Christ loved their assembly.

--This is very specific to the church at Ephesus and should be applied to every Bible believing church. The foundation of our church is the Scriptures which are written by the apostles and prophets. The cornerstone of the foundation is Christ. That fact is reiterated over and over again in Scripture. Every member of every church adds to the building of that church. This cannot refer to anything but a local church. The same illustration is given in more detail in 1Cor.11.

Absolutely. Written to the Ephesian church, they were one body, united by one Spirit, called on one hope of one calling. It reflects the unity of the church at Ephesus, as it should with every local church.

Which husband and which wife, and which church? The church was the one at Ephesus, and representative of all churches just like the husband and wife are representative of all married couples.

See above explanation.

And so we should.

Check 1John 2:19. There were false teachers that entered into every place. But God knows them that are his.


This does speak of an assembly, an heavenly one; the one time when all believers will meet together as a "universal church" in heaven but not on earth. On earth it is an impossibility.

All of us are priests. Peter wasn't addressing a local church. He was addressing suffering believers that were of the diaspora. Everyone of us are to offer up (as the family of God, and as priests before God) spiritual sacrifices.

just shows that we will agree to disagree, as we have a different view on what thsoe verses are actually referencing, but thats OK!

 

[jbh28]

Universal church( all believers)
local church( a local body of believers)

Some people bark about a universal church because it doesn't assemble. Well, we will assemble one day. My church is still a church today even though we won't assemble till Sunday. If one prefers to refer the universal church as the body of Christ, fine. Christ said he would build his church and he was referring to the body of Christ and not just a local assembly of believers. The local church is current picture of the universal church.

 

[Tom Butler]

In I Corinthians 12:27, Paul was very specific in how he described the congregation at Corinth:

Now you are the body of Christ....

He didn't call it A body of Christ; he called it THE body of Christ.

FBC Corinth is THE body of Christ. Just as my church is THE body of Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

Universal church( all believers)
local church( a local body of believers)

Some people bark about a universal church because it doesn't assemble. Well, we will assemble one day. My church is still a church today even though we won't assemble till Sunday. If one prefers to refer the universal church as the body of Christ, fine. Christ said he would build his church and he was referring to the body of Christ and not just a local assembly of believers. The local church is current picture of the universal church.

I like what the Baptist Faith and Message says: The New Testament speaks also of the Church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

 

[Tom Butler]

I, too, like what the Baptist Faith and Message says:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]A church of Christ is a congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the ordinances of Christ, governed by his laws, and exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by his word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Its Scriptural officers are bishops, or elders, and deacons.[/SIZE][/FONT]

This is the 1925 BF&M. No mention of the Universal Church. Wonder what changed by 1963? Were those early Baptists wrong all that time?

 

[Tom Butler]

that is the picture of the Universal church fully together in heaven, right now its members are split between heaven and earth!

I can understand that they are in heaven. Where do they assemble here on the earth?

And where is the scriptural basis for a split U-church?

Forgive the sarcasm, my old sinful nature is making me do this. If the U-Church existed, they wouldn't have me as a member. I never show up for the meetings. I never give it a dime? I never go to the fellowship meals. I don't even know who the deacons are? And they definitely wouldn't let me vote at the business meetings.

 

[richardetyler]

The New Testament speaks also of the Church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.[/b]

:thumbsup:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

It does indeed speak of the chuch as the "body of Christ"...but what Scriptural Justification do we have for claiming that the "body of christ" indeed consists of:

all the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation

This is usually asserted and assumed. Where do the Scriptures define the "body of Christ" this way?

Allow me to add this statement from a preacher I once heard on the topic...If that IS the "body of Christ" it's the most dismembered body you will ever see.

 

[Bro. James]

Universal church? Yes indeed. Such has been promulgated from a hill in Rome for centuries. It shows up in the so-called Apostles Creed. It shows up in the councils, anathemas, dogma, catechisis of the Romanists. It has been reformed many times.

It is still false doctrine.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[OldRegular]

Universal church? Yes indeed. Such has been promulgated from a hill in Rome for centuries. It shows up in the so-called Apostles Creed. It shows up in the councils, anathemas, dogma, catechisis of the Romanists. It has been reformed many times.

It is still false doctrine.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

Just because the Roman Catholic Communion embraces a truth is a poor reason to reject that truth.

If memory is correct it was the Bishop of Rome responsible for the Council of Chalcedon. Do you reject the Chalcedon statement on the person of Jesus Christ?

Rome's error as far as the Universal Church is concerned is their insistence that it is visible and they are it.

 

[OldRegular]

I can understand that they are in heaven. Where do they assemble here on the earth?

And where is the scriptural basis for a split U-church?

Forgive the sarcasm, my old sinful nature is making me do this. If the U-Church existed, they wouldn't have me as a member. I never show up for the meetings. I never give it a dime? I never go to the fellowship meals. I don't even know who the deacons are? And they definitely wouldn't let me vote at the business meetings.

When Jesus Christ said I will build my Church [Matthew 16:18] was he speaking of the local church? He certainly does not put unbelievers in His Church: does He?

 

[Bro. James]

Just because the Roman Catholic Communion embraces a truth is a poor reason to reject that truth.

If memory is correct it was the Bishop of Rome responsible for the Council of Chalcedon. Do you reject the Chalcedon statement on the person of Jesus Christ?

Rome's error as far as the Universal Church is concerned is their insistence that it is visible and they are it.

------------------------------------------------

So what are we saying--the universal church in invisible? The real problem with this is all the saved are not in the Church. It follows that all on the rolls of the church are not necessarily saved. This is the basic problem: many churches are filled with the unregenerated, from the leadership on down to the pew warmers.

One is saved without baptism or church membership. This boils to: the church is local-- period. The Lord knows them that are His. See Mt. 7 where He tells some who think they have done mighty things for the Lord--He says,"Depart from me, ye that work iniquity, I have never known you."

Roman Church councils had little if anything to do with New Testament churches and the saints thereof. The fact that these councils were called should indicate that not everyone was in agreement with Roman ecclesiology/dogma.

Nicea(325) was called and chaired by a Roman Emperor. Vatican II revealed another serious schism among the faithful. The gang at Constantine City have been split for 10 centuries. Rome has some serious problems which do not seem to go away. The basic one is authority--she either has the authority in Mt. 16 or has not. If she has, she is supreme, and all others are apostate usurpers. If she does not have the authority, she is the usurper along with her daughters. No authority reformed is still no authority.

It is no wonder, Satan himself is become an angel of light.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Bro. James