Is there any other way to read this verse?

[Dave G]

Election is not is being born again you were born in sin like the rest of us.

I agree.
Election is not the same as being born again...
It is God choosing unworthy and rebellious sinners to salvation, before the foundation of the world, through the sanctification of their spirit ( by the Spirit ) and through, ( not because of ) their belief of the truth.

I was born in sin just like any other person, and am totally unworthy of God having saved me.
It was and is all His work, start to finish.

You are not elect because you are not a Jew.

I agree that I am not elect in the sense of being one of God's chosen earthly nation of Israel.

But I am elect ( the "Israel of God" ) because I am of His chosen "nation", spiritually;
I just happen to be a Gentile, and I see that all of God's precious children are elect, both Jew and Gentile alike.

I've also presented to you ( many times ) the Scriptures where Peter, Paul and John all address everyone that believes on Christ to be God's elect.
For example:

Romans 1:7, which addresses all that are in Rome,
Romans 8:33 which asks the question of "who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect", and that it is God who justifies them;
and Romans 11:13 which specifically addresses the Gentiles that were at Rome...
meaning the entire letter was addressed to God's elect at Rome.

But that seems to have not persuaded you.
Why, I cannot say...but I do know that it has taken me quite a while to put all the pieces together for myself, so I know that this isn't something that one will see overnight in their studies.

Election cannot save only Jesus Christ does the saving

I agree once again.

Election does not save anyone.
What it does is to put people into the Lamb's Book of Life for His Son to save.

See John 17:2.

That is how I understand it, and you are free to disagree without me casting you in a bad light or insulting you.

 

[MB]

MB,
When it comes to the Scriptures, you see one thing and I see another.

You have a right to see, believe, teach and preach what you do, and I have a right to do the same.

I agree.
To me, the passage being referenced in this thread is clear about why I believed...

Because I was ordained to eternal life.

But that does not seem clear to you,
which is why we seem to disagree on this, as well as many other things.

Who ordained you?
Does it say God has ordained you. not to mention being ordained is not determined by God commandment. The same man wrote Acts 16:31 and says the opposite was Paul double minded? is the scripture's unsure. Is God playing with us just to see us argue? You believe something unclear and I believe in the clear truth of scripture. Then your claim is you are right. even though there cannot be salvation with out faith because Grace comes through FAITH.
MB
.

 

[MB]

I agree.
Election is not the same as being born again...
It is God choosing unworthy and rebellious sinners to salvation, before the foundation of the world, through the sanctification of their spirit ( by the Spirit ) and through, ( not because of ) their belief of the truth.

I was born in sin just like any other person, and am totally unworthy of God having saved me.
It was and is all His work, start to finish.

I agree that I am not elect in the sense of being one of God's chosen earthly nation of Israel.

But I am elect ( the "Israel of God" ) because I am of His chosen "nation", spiritually;
I just happen to be a Gentile, and I see that all of God's precious children are elect, both Jew and Gentile alike.

I've also presented to you ( many times ) the Scriptures where Peter, Paul and John all address everyone that believes on Christ to be God's elect.
For example:

Romans 1:7, which addresses all that are in Rome,
Romans 8:33 which asks the question of "who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect", and that it is God who justifies them;
and Romans 11:13 which specifically addresses the Gentiles that were at Rome...
meaning the entire letter was addressed to God's elect at Rome.

But that seems to have not persuaded you.
Why, I cannot say...but I do know that it has taken me quite a while to put all the pieces together for myself, so I know that this isn't something that one will see overnight in their studies.

I agree once again.

Election does not save anyone.
What it does is to put people into the Lamb's Book of Life for His Son to save.

See John 17:2.

That is how I understand it, and you are free to disagree without me casting you in a bad light or insulting you.

There is not even one verse in scripture that says a Gentile is elect. Did Peter say Cornelius was elect? The only Gentile to have Peter to preach to a him. Both Peter and John were apostles to the Jews. Even Paul when he preached in the synagogues wasn't allowed to bring in Gentiles. The only time I know of that he even spoke to a Gentile was while he was in Jail in Rome or, in Athens.The Bible for the most part was written to the Jews. Of course we read and study it and believe in it yet this does not mean everything in it is addressed to the Gentiles. The Bible was written to the Jews.
MB

 

[37818]

The Bible for the most part was written to the Jews.

What about the letters the Apostle Paul wrote to the Gentile churches.

 

[MB]

What about the letters the Apostle Paul wrote to the Gentile churches.

Did Paul ever call them Gentile Churches My Bible program has no such reference to any church being Gentile.
Since it was Paul's custom to teach in the synagogues and what happened to him when he went in the synagogue in Ephisus speaks to me very loudly. The only other place we know of where he could reach Gentiles was in Athens. This is not to say that He didn't preach in the street or that there were no Gentiles in his churches but we do know Jews didn't allow Gentiles in there synagogue. There were Gentiles who followed after and worked with Paul. Jews were then a very large population. However I believe most of His letters were addressed to all involved in the faith both Jews and Gentiles.I just do not agree that most were Gentiles. The largest reason I do not believe in election for my self is that the Bible never calls any Gentile elect. Paul didn't call anyone elect alone in Rome and certainly there were some saved there. The same with Athens .
Paul mentions only once the elect in Romans and what he says has nothing to do with a Gentile. Don't you think this is odd? a City of Gentiles and all he says is this.
Rom_8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Election is special and if so don't you think someone would have told us directly that we Gentiles are elect too? Yet scripture never does this but it does for the Jew.
Isa_42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
MB

 

[Dave G]

Who ordained you?

God did.
And, if you've believed on Him from the heart, then He has done the same for you.

Does it say God has ordained you.

Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
".......as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed."

Therefore, the reason that I believed on Christ as my Saviour, was that I was ordained to my gift ( Romans 3:23 ) of eternal life.
To me it is as simple as that.

God ordained something, and it came to pass.
I was ordained to eternal life, and I believed when I heard my Saviour's words preached in 1978.

The same man wrote Acts 16:31 and says the opposite was Paul double minded?

Not at all.

In fact, I don't see anything that he wrote as being contradictory, unless I start taking verses out of their proper context.
For example, why did the Philippian jailer believe Paul's preaching, when others around him ( or most of those on Mars Hill in Athens in the very next chapter ) didn't?

Scripture actually tells us why, MB...
Back in Acts of the Apostles 13:48.

 

[Dave G]

Is God playing with us just to see us argue?

No, but it is His prerogative to save whom He wishes ( Romans 9:14-24 ) and to cause His Spirit to dwell in them that they might know the things freely given to them of God ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).

Therefore, if anyone "hears" His voice ( welcomes His words and rejoices in the truth of them ), it is because He has done a miraculous work in them, and they then receive His every word.
You do believe God's every word, don't you?

If so, then it's because He did a work in you...not because of your choice to believe.

You believe something unclear and I believe in the clear truth of scripture.

I agree that you see one thing when you read the Bible, and I see another.
What is clear to me, is not clear to you and vice-versa.

The passage referred to in this thread appears to be one of them.
In other words, I'm believing something about this passage that is clear to me, but not to you.

Then your claim is you are right. even though there cannot be salvation with out faith because Grace comes through FAITH.

But you're doing the exact same thing, MB...
Claiming to be right, while claiming that I am wrong because I understand the Scriptures differently than you do.

While each of us cannot both be right, and at the same time say and teach different things, what it comes down to is this:

In the absence of God outright telling us which one of us is right and which one of us is wrong,
we are both free to preach and teach what we each see in the Bible;
You preach and teach what you see, and I'll preach and teach what I see...
And He will judge between us on that Day.

In the meantime, if we agree, then we agree;
If we don't, we don't and we both go our separate ways... in peace, if you are willing.

I do hope that we can both agree on that, at least.

 

[Dave G]

There is not even one verse in scripture that says a Gentile is elect.

I agree to an extent.

If you're looking for one "verse" that says it all, you won't find one.
What you will find is that by reading the Scriptures as a whole, we can know who Paul, Peter and John, for example, are addressing in the churches because it tells us:
God's elect.

See 1 Thessalonians 1, for example, as well as Titus 1, Romans 1, Ephesians 1, Colossians 1 through Colossians 3 and several others.

Did Peter say Cornelius was elect?

Did Peter ever call Gentiles "elect"?
Sure he did....See 1 Peter 1:1-2.

He addressed the "strangers" scattered throughout Pontus, Galatians, Cappadocia, etc. as God's elect.
Do you believe that he was only addressing Jews?
I do not;

In fact, when I read it, I see that he was addressing all believers in Jesus Christ.

 

[Dave G]

The Bible for the most part was written to the Jews.

Respectfully,
I see that the Bible was written for every believer to grow in the knowledge of God and to take comfort in the words that were preserved for them, by Him.

Please see Romans 15:4, 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15 as examples.

The only time I know of that he even spoke to a Gentile was while he was in Jail in Rome or, in Athens.

When I look at God's word, I see that Paul spoke to Gentiles at Athens, at Corinth, in Galatia, at Rome, at Ephesus, at Colosse, at Philippi in Macedonia and in other locations.
Many of them believed on Christ, and many of them he later wrote letters to.

Some of those letters were inspired of God and preserved by the Lord for us to read and to take comfort in, as well as to take instruction from.

The Bible for the most part was written to the Jews. Of course we read and study it and believe in it yet this does not mean everything in it is addressed to the Gentiles. The Bible was written to the Jews.

The entire Bible was written to the Jews?
The epistles to the churches, everything was for them?

If you're correct, not one Gentile believer in Jesus Christ can take any comfort in any of it, because for the most part, we're all Gentiles, MB.
Not one word of it was ever intended for any of us, because it wasn't written to us, was it?

So,
If you're teaching people that it was all written to the Jews,
then anyone who is not a Jew can take anything that it says as even applying to them as believers in Jesus Christ, can they?
In other words,
You're not giving any Gentile believer any hope that what they read on the pages is actually for them.

That said, I'll take make this my last reply in this thread and take my leave of it.
I wish you well, MB, even though we may never agree with what's written on the pages;

Yet my sincere hope is that we do that very thing, someday.

 

[37818]

Did Paul ever call them Gentile Churches My Bible program has no such reference to any church being Gentile.

So how was the Apostle Paul an Apostle to Gentiles?
Romans 11:13.
2 Timothy 1:11.

 

[percho]

Who/what is a Gentile?

Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. Amos 3:1,2
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. Jer 3:8
I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men: Duet 32:26

Has the remembrance of the house of Judah, the Judeans, ever ceased from among men?

Hosea 8:8 Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.

Why did God send Paul to the Gentiles?
Did it begin with Peter?
Who did God, foreknow? Amos 3:1,2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice (elect) sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, From 1 Peter 1:1,2

Acts 15:7,8,14 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us;
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Who are the us? Who are the them? Did God give 1st us and then them the Holy Spirit?
Are these that have been given the Holy Spirit whom are spoken of in Romans 8:23 as having the first-fruit of the Holy Spirit? Is that taking out a people for his name and giving them the Holy Spirit still going today? Are these the same as in verse 28 the call according to purpose? The foreknown and predestinated of verse 29? Called according to purpose. What purpose? Are these same people who have been given the Holy Spirit the ones in the order of resurrection who are called are Christ's at his coming in 1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.? Are the the same as spoken of in Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Does that state the purpose they were called for? Who are they going to reign over, these who were taken as a people for his name?

Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Does this take place after a return?

Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Here is how Joel puts that.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.



IMHO

 

[MB]

So how was the Apostle Paul an Apostle to Gentiles?
Romans 11:13.
2 Timothy 1:11.

Paul is how Salvation was sent to the Gentiles. Both of the verses you have presented tell us He was appointed to this task

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it..
MB

 

[Van]

Acts of the Apostles 13:48:
"When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of [fn]the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

The above verse is poorly translated because "had been appointed" translates a Greek word meaning to make an arrangement by mutual consent as if it meant a unilateral action by God.

So the verse might be translated as "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had accepted direction to eternal life believed.

Poor or vague translations when the meaning can be derived contextually are unnecessary and provide an opening for false doctrine.

 

[37818]

Paul is how Salvation was sent to the Gentiles. Both of the verses you have presented tell us He was appointed to this task

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it..
MB

My difficulty is with your view on election on non-Jewish believers. I hear your objections. But fail to understand them to disallow the term being applied to the Gentile believe. Please do not give up, but continue to explain as we go. It is my understanding that the letters by the Apostle Paul to churches were to Gentile churches which did have Jewish believers. Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians and Galatians are notable examples.

 

[MB]

My difficulty is with your view on election on non-Jewish believers. I hear your objections. But fail to understand them to disallow the term being applied to the Gentile believe. Please do not give up, but continue to explain as we go. It is my understanding that the letters by the Apostle Paul to churches were to Gentile churches which did have Jewish believers. Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians and Galatians are notable examples.

There are several reasons I do not believe in election of Gentiles Not just one but many. I do not believe God ever goes back on His promises No matter whether sin is involved or not..I do not believe God foreknew Gentiles. The book of Ephesians was written to the Jews they are the only People who were foreknown.The Bible even says so that the Jews are the only known of in:

Amo 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

The Bible was written to the Jews even though there is instruction in it on how Gentiles can be saved too. Not every promise given, is to the Gentiles some are but election is not one of them. Calvinist and Arminians both claim to be fore know of God from the foundation of the world which is not true.. Only the Jews were fore known other wise the Bible would be a lie. more later I have to go for now.
MB

 

[37818]

. . . claimto be fore know of God from the foundation of the world which is not true.. Only the Jews were fore known other wise the Bible would be a lie. more later I have to go for now.

1 Peter 1:1-2, ". . . to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. . . ."
Can you show these are only Jewish?

 

[AustinC]

MB wrote:
I do not believe God foreknew Gentiles.

Verses in the OT that would imply otherwise:

Genesis 22:18

In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

Psalm 22:27

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.

Psalm 86:9

All nations whom You have made shall come and worship before You, O Lord,
And they shall glorify Your name.

Isaiah 9:2

The people who walk in darkness
Will see a great light;
Those who live in a dark land,
The light will shine on them.

Isaiah 42:1

“Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold;
My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the nations.

Isaiah 49:6

He says, “It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also make You a light of the nations
So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”

Isaiah 55:5

“Behold, you will call a nation you do not know,
And a nation which knows you not will run to you,
Because of the Lord your God, even the Holy One of Israel;
For He has glorified you.”

Isaiah 60:3

“Nations will come to your light,
And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Daniel 7:14

“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Hosea 2:23

“I will sow her for Myself in the land.
I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion,
And I will say to those who were not My people,
‘You are My people!’
And they will say, ‘You are my God!’”

Malachi 1:11

For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord of hosts.

23 Bible verses about The Gentiles Conversion

 

[MB]

1 Peter 1:1-2, ". . . to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. . . ."
Can you show these are only Jewish?

The word stranger does not mean he is speaking to the Gentiles. A fellow Jew can be a stranger. Actually anyone can be a stranger. Yet God said out of all the families of the earth He has only known Jews. If this is true then there is no way that he had known any Gentiles. At least until they accepted Him a Savior All though He created them.. Not to mention Peter was not the apostle to the Gentiles. Scripture does not contradict it self and this would be a contradiction.. Like Paul, Peter thought of the Jews first. We all do this we always think of our own first. It's only natural.. Peter didn't want to go to Cornelius at fist until he had a vision from Jesus..Prejudice has always existed among the people of earth..

Paul I think was ashamed that more Jews didn't or wouldn't trust in Christ. Yet he still preached to them Christ Jesus.

What about the passage you presented makes you feel Gentiles are elect? It doesn't mention Gentiles and there is no proclamation from God that Gentile are elect. Jew were elect even before they sought God

MB

 

[37818]

The word stranger does not mean he is speaking to the Gentiles. A fellow Jew can be a stranger. Actually anyone can be a stranger.

A mere assertion that solely Jewish Christians are meant is not evidence that Gentiles are not who are being referred to.

 

[MB]

Can you show these are only Jewish?

No.but then you can't show they are all Gentiles either. We call these churches Gentile because they are in Gentile countries not because the Bible calls them Gentile churches. We know it was Paul's custom to go and teach in the synagogues even though Gentiles weren't allowed. We know Paul was jailed because of him bringing a Gentile into the synagogue.
I don't really expect you to believe what I believe. All I'm doing is showing you why I believe what I do. You see I will not let my self assume anything is true I have to see written proof in God's Word, it is only His Word that is truth. A lot of people hear the preacher say this or that and believe it with out written Proof. I will not imagine it .It has to be factual..
MB