Is there any other way to read this verse?

[kyredneck]

If one is already appointed or chosen prior to belief, then there can be no “corporate election.”

Exactly.

Pronouns reveal it's all about individuals::

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

 

[kyredneck]

The explicit Biblical answer is after one's faith. John 1:12-13.

No, v 13 is describing those as already born of God who received Him in v 12. The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 2:14

 

[37818]

No, v 13 is describing those as already born of God who received Him in v 12. The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 2:14

Our understanding here is a fundamental disagreement. And it goes to how anyone knows anything. Hearing precedes faith for starters.

 

[kyredneck]

Hearing precedes faith for starters.

Born of God precedes faith.

 

[37818]

Born of God precedes faith.

The word of God nowhere teaches the being born of God precedes the faith. Now it is true one continues to believe after one is born of God. Of course.

 

[kyredneck]

The word of God

...teaches that BEFORE one can enter or even see the kingdom of God he must first be born from above.

 

[37818]

...teaches that BEFORE one can enter or even see the kingdom of God he must first be born from above.

But that is not in disagreement. John 3:3.

 

[Van]

So heretical that no one should hold it...
Note in your theology that humans must merit God willing them to be born again by having an independent faith that God sees as righteous.

Such a teaching is utterly anathema to God's teaching. I cannot be strong enough in my absolute rejection of your heretical theology, Van.

It is my hope that all who claim Christ as Savior will see how utterly wrong your teaching is as it goes entirely against what God teaches in the Bible.

On and on, false charge after false charge, as no one claims humans must merit God willing them to be born again. False doctrine must be defended by false charges. That's all folks

 

[agedman]

What I have found on this site is that the calvinists refuse to look at their own doctrines because if they did and took them to the logical end they would see how horrid they are. Many have shown the errors of calvinism but to zero effect. Cognitive Dissonance is the byword of calvinism. If you just deny it it can't be true, wow what a mixed up theology you have.
Martin runs and hides from the tough questions Austin resorts to name calling instead of answering clear questions. Both act more like children that adults.
Though I have attempted to have civil discussion that has proven to be impossible here. So I will leave you calvinists to wallow in your self deception.

Why not present your own views for Scripture Scrutiny?

You make bold claims, but without Scripture substance that supports any alternative.

Easy believe-ism is an alternative, is that your view?

 

[kyredneck]

But that is not in disagreement. John 3:3.

Exactly. It IS John 3:3.

 

[37818]

Exactly. It IS John 3:3.

Well, John 3:14-15, ". . . the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. . . ."

 

[Dave G]

Here a verse in Acts that signifies how Gentile believers attained eternal life.

Is there any other way then that presented?

Yes,
and from my interactions on this forum over the past several years, there seem to be several ways to understand it:

1) That only as many as were ordained to eternal life ( and no more ), believed Paul's preaching.
2) Doubting ( or being confused about ) what it says, going back to the Greek and looking at the word "τεταγμένοι", which is the past-tense form of the word "τάσσω" ( tassō ), and deciding to use a different definition for it than what is generally used by Bible translators.

Example:

Choosing item B instead of item A, or choosing item B's " to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon " ( man's efforts plus God's efforts ) instead of " to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority " ( God's efforts alone ) as found here:
G5021 - tassō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)


3) Genuinely seeing the opposite of what some others do, that the belief actually precedes the ordination...
That the Lord only ordains those who have freely and first, placed their faith and trust in Him and His Son.

 

[Dave G]

How then is there argument concerning “corporate election” and salvation.

I do not know, and the reality of the issue is this:

There will always be people who disagree with not only the translation of this passage, but in what it actually says when properly translated ( which even that concept, "proper" translation, is being challenged by many today ).

In other words,
People who do not see, agree with or understand personally for themselves, that an individual believes on Christ strictly because they were ordained to eternal life ( which is selective on the part of God )...
are never going to agree with someone who does.

The simple fact of the matter is, one person reads and understands it one way, and another the opposite.
This is what I see being at the core of the entire debate regarding how and why a person believes on Christ ( and by extension, any passage of Scripture upon which there is disagreement )...

How one reads and understands the Scriptures for themselves.

 

[Dave G]

If one is already appointed or chosen prior to belief, then there can be no “corporate election.”

I agree to an extent.
But I must confess that when I study the Scriptures, I see both...

Individuals chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ), being placed within the body of Christ, thereby making the entire body "corporately" ( bodily ) chosen "in Him";

God choosing out of the nations a people for Himself ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ), with the physical example of Israel ( Deuteronomy 7:6 ) being the spiritual example of all who have believed on Christ, from the heart.

Or are all these translations in error?

Some would say, "yes", I would say, "no".

My friend, welcome to the last of the last days...
and I say this in all seriousness.

For every passage of Scripture upon which there is disagreement, there are sometimes multiple "interpretations" that professing Christians are going to be divided over into those things that we call "denominations".

The fact that there is anyone who agrees with any three things in the Bible these days, is a miracle to me.

 

[MB]

Another post without any Scripture, I see.
I answered your question in my last post. It appears that you were not astute enough to comprehend, so here you are again. If no one can see or enter the kingdom of God without being born from above, then plainly it is necessary to be born from above in order to enter. Since salvation is through faith, then obviously regeneration comes before belief..
Perhaps you should try harder to understand.

Romans 9:22-23.
I am not interested in your fallen human logic. I am interested in what the Scriptures teach.

The truth of Scripture is all I am interested in. I quote it and expound it. How dare you accuse me of not having a vested interest in Biblical truth when you never seem to use it yourself, but prefer snide comments like the one above?

They conform absolutely to the character of Almighty God, unlike your system that teaches that God does not love anybody enough to save them.
"We only use the term 'Calvinism' for shortness. That doctrine which is called 'Calvinism' did not spring from Calvin; we believe it sprang from the great founder of all truth. Perhaps Calvin derived it mainly from the writings of Augustine. Augustine obtained his views, without doubt, through the Spirit of God, from the diligent study of the writings of Paul, and Paul received the from the Holy Ghost, from Jesus Christ, the great founder of the Christian dispensation.
We use the term then, not because we impute any extraordinary importance to Calvin's having taught these doctrines. We would be just as willing to call them by any other name, if we could find one that would be better understood, and which on the whole would be as consistent with fact.' C.H. Spurgeon.

I have pointed out before that Calvinism is older than Calvin:
'By grace we are plucked out of Adam, the ground of all evil, and graffed into Christ, the root of all goodness. In Christ God loved us, his elect and chosen, before the world began, and reserved us unto the knowledge of his Son and of his holy gospel; and when the gospel is preached to us, openeth our hearts, and giveth us grace to believe, and putteth the Spirit of Christ in us. ' William Tyndale, 'A Pathway into the Scriptures,' c. 1525.

I am sick to death of your snide comments. You are now on ignore.

If this is what William Tyndale said then he too ignored what scripture actually says and added his own theories. How did he miss Acts 16:31.Please show us all where scripture says we are saved first then comes faith.

How is it the man who wrote most of the new testament. Could say to the Jailer" Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" When the jailer asked how. You are avoiding what scripture actually says Belief comes first it never comes the way you suggest.
MB

 

[Dave G]

Please show us all where scripture says we are saved first then comes faith.

I cannot speak for Steve of course, but when I read God's word, these come to mind:

Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Hebrews 4:3.
Hebrews 12:2.
Galatians 4:1-7.
Romans 8:29-30.
Romans 9.
John 6:36-45.
John 6:64-65.
John 10:26-27.
1 Corinthians 1:18-31.
1 Thessalonians 2:13.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
Psalms 65:4.

How is it the man who wrote most of the new testament. Could say to the Jailer" Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" When the jailer asked how.

Offering up my own understanding of the passage that you referenced ( Acts of the Apostles 16:25-34 ),
I see that the jailer asked the question from his own formerly dead ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, Ephesians 2:1-7, Ephesians 4:17-19 spiritually and towards God ) heart's urging.

I then ask myself that in the context of places like Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and many others, including Romans 1, Romans 2 and Romans 3,
"How could a man whose heart and mind are in rejection of God and His words, possibly change those things, realize his sin, and want to be saved from God's eternal wrath?"

To me, God changed his hard heart ( just as He did for Lydia in Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ) and God's spirit was leading him to seek that answer.

In other words,
He was being "called", just as Romans 8:29-30 says that God does for every one of the ones that He has foreknown, predestinated, justified and glorified.

 

[MB]

I cannot speak for Steve of course, but when I read God's word, these come to mind:

Acts of the Apostles 13:48. This depends on who appointed and when the appointment took place. The YLT says it differently
Hebrews 4:3. This says absolutely nothing about saved before faith
Hebrews 12:2. This says he is the author and finisher of our faith it does not say when
Galatians 4:1-7.Nothing about when
Romans 8:29-30. Nope not here either
Romans 9 .Not here either.
John 6:36-45Not here either..
John 6:64-65Not here either..
John 10:26-27.Not here either.
1 Corinthians 1:18-31Not here either..
1 Thessalonians 2:13-14Not here either..
Psalms 65:4Not here either.
.

My answers are in blue none of this says when Salvation is given
MB

 

[Dave G]

My answers are in blue none of this says when Salvation is given

To you they don't,
But to me they do...

Especially when I see everything that they say and how they all relate to everything else that the Lord has to say about how and why people believe on Christ.

For example, one passage that I did not list above ( Ephesians 1:3-12 ) tells me exactly when I was saved...and it even tells me why.
As does Romans 8:28-39.

 

[MB]

To you they don't,
But to me they do...

Especially when I see everything that they say and how they all relate to everything else that the Lord has to say about how and why people believe on Christ.

For example, one passage that I did not list above ( Ephesians 1:3-12 ) tells me exactly when I was saved...and it even tells me why.
As does Romans 8:28-39.

Dave;
You are only imagining what you see there because it's just not there. Scripture is clear on when we are saved. Election is not is being born again you were born in sin like the rest of us. You are not elect because you are not a Jew. Election cannot save only Jesus Christ does the saving
MB

 

[Dave G]

Dave;
You are only imagining what you see there because it's just not there.

MB,
When it comes to the Scriptures, you see one thing and I see another.

You have a right to see, believe, teach and preach what you do, and I have a right to do the same.

Scripture is clear on when we are saved

I agree.
To me, the passage being referenced in this thread is clear about why I believed...

Because I was ordained to eternal life.

But that does not seem clear to you,
which is why we seem to disagree on this, as well as many other things.