Featured Is there any other way to read this verse?

Let's look at your question:
...when are sinners born again before or after they believe?
The term "born again" is found in John 3. There Jesus is having a dialog with Nicodemus. Jesus states:

Based on Jesus dialog, that new birth has nothing to do with human will. It has everything to do with God making someone new.

Let's compare with what God tells us through the Apostle Paul.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
~ Romans 5:6-11

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
~ Romans 6:5-11

Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
~ Romans 7:1-6

The answer to your question then is this:

God does all the work. We die to sin in Christ. We are then raised to new life in Christ (born again). We are justified in this truth...by faith.

Since we are slaves to sin and its wages is death, we cannot believe in that state. We must die with Christ and be made alive (born again) with Christ, before we can believe what God has actually done.

Our redemption is a monergistic act of God, alone. Our sanctification is a synergistic cooperation of our freed will to choose obedience to God rather than obedience to sin. Paul lays this all out in his magnificent apologetic argument in Romans. Paul and Jesus both answer you so that you should not miss this important truth.

 

On and on folks, Calvinists post their false doctrine. What does John 1:11-13 say? Those that believe, even in His name, are given the right to become children of God. How are we given the right to be redeemed upon Christ's return? By God causing us to be spiritually born anew, when God alone chooses to place us spiritually in Christ. Thus we are born by the will of God after God credits our faith as righteousness. So simple a child could understand it...

 

So heretical that no one should hold it...
Note in your theology that humans must merit God willing them to be born again by having an independent faith that God sees as righteous.

Such a teaching is utterly anathema to God's teaching. I cannot be strong enough in my absolute rejection of your heretical theology, Van.

It is my hope that all who claim Christ as Savior will see how utterly wrong your teaching is as it goes entirely against what God teaches in the Bible.

 

Of course vou are being holier-than-thou. You have referenced some website somewhere, without identifying it and ascribed all sorts of horrors to those who post on it.
1, What am I supposed to do about it? I don't post on such sites.
2. You do not need to go outside of this site - or, indeed, outside of you own posts therein - to find all sorts of ad homs and insults. Moreover, you have not posted a single Bible text in support of your theology in your last two or three posts; they are all about insulting anonymous alleged Calvinists who are not on this board to defend themselves Physician, heal thyself!

John 3:3. 'Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again [or 'from above.' take your pick] He cannot see the kingdom of God.' My question for you is, according to that verse, what is necessary in order for someone to see the kingdom of God.
But why don't you ask me, when are sinners justified?

This is where you go wrong. Your theology is dependent upon your fallen human logic instead of the word of God. Read Isaiah 55:8-9. It will be helpful for you.

C.H. Spurgeon wrote 'A Defense of Calvinism' [Banner of Truth Books. ISBN 978-0-85151-973-9]. Yet here are two samples of his preaching from John 6:37:

"Sinners, let me address you with words of life; Jesus Christ wants nothing of you, nothing whatsoever, nothing done, nothing felt; He gives both work and feeling. Ragged, penniless, just as you are, lost, forsaken, desolate, with no good hopes, still Jesus comes to you, and in these words of pity He addresses you, 'Him that cometh unto Me I will in no wise cast out.'"

"'Him that cometh unto Me:'....the man may have been guilty of an atrocious sin, too black for mention; but if he comes to Christ he shall not be cast out. He may have made himself as black as night - as black as hell.... I cannot tell what kind of persons may have come into this hall tonight; but if burglars, murderers, and dynamite men were here, I would still bid them come to Christ, for He will not cast them out. No limit is set to the extent of sin: any 'him' in all the world - any blaspheming, devilish 'him' that comes to Christ shall be welcomed. I use strong words that I may open the gates of mercy. Any 'him' that comes to Christ - though he come from slum or taproom, betting-ring or gambling-hell, prison or brothel - Jesus will in no wise cast out."
[From the Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. 9, pp. 537-8 & vol.30, pp. 54-5]

As a Calvinist, I aspire to preach as Spurgeon did. I don't achieve it, but that is my aim and desire.

 

Hahaha

god had guaranteed the end result!

 

So now can you answer the question without all the added text. It really is not that hard is it
when are sinners born again before or after they believe?

Check one
Before
After

 

As I asked Austin I will ask you again.

When is a person born again before or after they believe?

Check one
Before
After

Calvinists, and I use that in the collective sense, come across as very confused. You say that God is sovereign in a deterministic way. Nothing happens outside of His control {WCF & LBCF} then turn around and say that man can overrule your god by doing what he wants, sin. When I point out the obvious contradiction of your view with "irresistible grace" you say I am "being holier-than-thou" really. If you do not like the fact that your view is not logical then change your view.

Martin you say you preach calvinism so you have a vested interest in it but don't you think you should have a vested interest in the truth of scripture.

Look at any of your "doctrines of grace" and think them through. Do they conform to the character of God or the character of calvin?
You carry on trusting in your calvinism I will trust in my risen Lord, Christ Jesus, as found in the scriptures.

 

Question#1
Being born again.
Question #2
Sinners are justified the moment they have faith in Christ. We are justified by Faith.

Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom_5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith
MB

 

Though you were not asking me. The explicit Biblical answer is after one's faith. John 1:12-13. To claim one is born from God before having the faith is irrational. And of course the ones who are born again have the faith afterwords too.

 

Another post without any Scripture, I see.
I answered your question in my last post. It appears that you were not astute enough to comprehend, so here you are again. If no one can see or enter the kingdom of God without being born from above, then plainly it is necessary to be born from above in order to enter. Since salvation is through faith, then obviously regeneration comes before belief..

Perhaps you should try harder to understand.

Romans 9:22-23.

I am not interested in your fallen human logic. I am interested in what the Scriptures teach.

The truth of Scripture is all I am interested in. I quote it and expound it. How dare you accuse me of not having a vested interest in Biblical truth when you never seem to use it yourself, but prefer snide comments like the one above?

They conform absolutely to the character of Almighty God, unlike your system that teaches that God does not love anybody enough to save them.
"We only use the term 'Calvinism' for shortness. That doctrine which is called 'Calvinism' did not spring from Calvin; we believe it sprang from the great founder of all truth. Perhaps Calvin derived it mainly from the writings of Augustine. Augustine obtained his views, without doubt, through the Spirit of God, from the diligent study of the writings of Paul, and Paul received the from the Holy Ghost, from Jesus Christ, the great founder of the Christian dispensation.
We use the term then, not because we impute any extraordinary importance to Calvin's having taught these doctrines. We would be just as willing to call them by any other name, if we could find one that would be better understood, and which on the whole would be as consistent with fact.' C.H. Spurgeon.

I have pointed out before that Calvinism is older than Calvin:
'By grace we are plucked out of Adam, the ground of all evil, and graffed into Christ, the root of all goodness. In Christ God loved us, his elect and chosen, before the world began, and reserved us unto the knowledge of his Son and of his holy gospel; and when the gospel is preached to us, openeth our hearts, and giveth us grace to believe, and putteth the Spirit of Christ in us. ' William Tyndale, 'A Pathway into the Scriptures,' c. 1525.

I am sick to death of your snide comments. You are now on ignore.

 

I answered your question with scripture. If you are too bothered to read scripture and see that it very clearly answers your question, then I resign any effort to discuss theology with you. It seems you are intent upon avoiding the Bible and instead spend time on your myths and speculations. Read my earlier post and know I directly answered your question. I will not dumb it down for you.

 

I know what the bible says I just wanted a straight answer form you.

Since your a calvinist that means for you a person has to be saved before they can believe.
So that brings up a few questions 1} Why is the gospel message even necessary? and 2} Why was it necessary for Christ Jesus to go to the cross?

I can answer both of those questions logically from the bible, for the calvinist that is only possible if you step outside your theology.
Your "doctrines of grace" make the gospel moot. Actually calvinism makes the whole bible moot. Remember under calvinism God had already picked out all those that were going to be with Him in eternity and according to your unconditional election He did not require of them faith or anything else.
So when I say that calvinism is not biblical I mean that calvinism has removed the necessity of God even interacting with His creation at all.

That may seem harsh but after reading through a number of calvinist texts and hearing a number of calvinist preachers I could come to no other conclusion.

FYI I have Calvins institutes and commentaries by, Calvin, Grudem, Schaff, Baker, Spurgeon and others. I have read and listened to Piper, Sproul , Washer, Edwards and others. So when I say that I understand calvinism it is because I looked into it over the past ten years. From all that I have found I find that it is lacking.
You may not like what I say about calvinism but it is just what I have found to be true.

 

Apparently you don't know what the Bible says because you are confused. I provided the answer by sharing God's Word, thinking that would convince you. But, you still act clueless.
Both Martin and I have answered you. Live with your denial.

 

I find that many calvinists can only repeat then same tired old lines to try and defend their errant theology.

The only thing that would make calvinists happy is if everyone just became a calvinist and forgot about biblical theology like they have. Sorry I will stick with the bible and follow Christ Jesus you can follow calvin.

 

Romans 8:6-8 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
How then are people justified by their own works? What would God identify that causes him to declare that person justified?

 

This says Acts 13:48 the same as in the YLT Not as it doe's the KJV
MB

 

What I have found on this site is that the calvinists refuse to look at their own doctrines because if they did and took them to the logical end they would see how horrid they are. Many have shown the errors of calvinism but to zero effect. Cognitive Dissonance is the byword of calvinism. If you just deny it it can't be true, wow what a mixed up theology you have.
Martin runs and hides from the tough questions Austin resorts to name calling instead of answering clear questions. Both act more like children that adults.
Though I have attempted to have civil discussion that has proven to be impossible here. So I will leave you calvinists to wallow in your self deception.