Is there anyone in Hell today?

[BobRyan]

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Hmmm... Does fire always represent the lake of fire?

I'm assuming that you are again referring to the lake of fire as "hell".

Yes it does when it is connected with Hell as in Matt 10 and "fiery Hell".

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Parables never use personal names.

Originally posted by Johnv:

Says who? I can't find that rule in "Parables for Dummies" anywhere.

Sorry, but it reads like all the other parables, and it likely is.

#1. It occurs in a long string of parables in Luke.

#2. Other parables use specifics - like the trees that elect a king - specific trees and plants are mentioned. It is still a parable.

#3. In Luke 16 the problem is that after a long string of parables - the Jewish leaders 'rejected them all'. Christ then follows with a parable that they DO accept as valid!

Were this to be instead based on "hey this is a true story because I SAY it is a true story" well they already had demonstrated that they were a hostile audience disinclined to accept information on a "I say-so" basis. So Christ uses Common ground that they DO accept "Abraham in charge of all the dead saints"

 

[partialrapture]

Parable or not, there is truth and reality taught,
and you will never find a parable, try i challenge, were God does use things that are real and exist
broom, corn, master, servant, silver, tares, lamps and so on...
so I conclude, since there be no other reason not to that there is a rich man in hell right now, in torment and flames, and he still desires water and some one to tell someone about that horrible place

 

[Hope of Glory]

Well, what about fire when it's associated with "hell", and "hell" is not associated with the lake of fire?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

As I stated before, Hell and the Lake of Fire are two different places... Revelation 20 shows Hell being thrown into the Lake of Fire. If they were one and the same place there would be no need for that verse.

 

[wopik]

how can fire destroy fire ?


Rev 20:13 -- "death and hell"

Rev 20:14 -- "death and hell"


Don't you have a KJV Bible with the center margin. In Rev 20:13, there's a little letter by the word hell. I look over at the center margin to find that same letter there, and beside that letter it says, Or, the grave.


So it looks like death and the grave are thrown into the lake of fire.


"The last enemy that will be destroyed is death". -- 1cor 15:26.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The question was actually aimed at BobRyan, as you two have stated your position quite articulately already.

 

[BobRyan]

Summary -

Hell is in fact the Lake of fire and is composed of “fire and brimstone” – “eternal fire”.

Fiery Hell--> Eternal Fire --> Fire and Brimstone --> Second Death (lake of fire)

1.
Eternal fire = Hell (fiery Hell). (Matt 18:8-9)
The final Judgment is one of “Eternal Fire” Jude 7 and Sodom shows that..

2.
The eternal fire sent to Sodom was in the form of “Fire and Brimstone: (Luke 17:2-30) and it will be JUST THE SAME in the judgment of Christ on the wicked.

3. The second Death is that Fire and Brimstone judgment sent upon the wicked after the millennium (Rev 21:8):


====================================
Detail:

Fiery Hell – is in fact “eternal fire”
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Matt 18:8-9
8 "" If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
9 "" If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Eternal fire is what consumed Sodom and Gomorrah – they are exhibited as a perfect example of the “punishment of eternal fire”

Jude 7
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrah were Destroyed by “fire and brimstone”. So eternal fire is composed of fire and brimstone and the “destruction” it causes is exhibited by Sodom and Gomorrah.

Luke 17:29-30
29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

The Lake of Fire is composed of “fire and brimstone” (The ultimate exhibit of the “punishment of eternal fire”.) This is the “second death” which is the punishment for sin “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life”

Rev 21:
8 "" But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

Hell is in fact the Lake of fire and is composed of “fire and brimstone” – “eternal fire”.

Fiery Hell--&gt; Eternal Fire --&gt; Fire and Brimstone --&gt; Second Death (lake of fire)

Now come on - you have to admit - that is pretty direct!

 

[Hope of Glory]

Direct, but incorrect, as sfic has shown.

 

[BobRyan]

I did not see SFC respond to the specic texts I gave that "show the link" that I claim exists in the Bible.

Did those texts "dissappear anyway"??

 

[BobRyan]

The term "hell" in Rev 20 is not the one that we see in Matt 10.

Here Jamieson,Fausset,Brown show that the term "Hades" is used to represent "grave" in Rev 20 not "Hell fire".

13. death and hell--Greek, "Hades." The essential identity of the dying and risen body is hereby shown; for the sea and grave give up their dead. The body that sinned or served God shall, in righteous retribution, be the body also that shall suffer or be rewarded. The "sea" may have a symbolical [CLUVER from AUGUSTINE], besides the literal meaning, as, in Re 8:8; 12:12; 13:1; 18:17, 19; so "death" and "hell" are personifications (compare Re 21:1). But the literal sense need hardly be departed from: all the different regions wherein the bodies and souls of men had been, gave them up.

http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020

JFB show that there is no way to equivocate between "hell" (Hades - the grave) in Rev 20 and the fiery Ghenna of Matt 10. (Though apparently SFC above would dearly love to do just that).

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown on Matt 10
28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul--In Lu 12:4, "and after that have no more that they can do."
but rather fear him--In Luke (Lu 12:5) this is peculiarly solemn, "I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear," even Him
which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell--A decisive proof this that there is a hell for the body as well as the soul in the eternal world; in other words, that the torment that awaits the lost will have elements of suffering adapted to the material as well as the spiritual part of our nature, both of which, we are assured, will exist for ever. In the corresponding warning contained in Luke (Lu 12:4), Jesus calls His disciples "My friends," as if He had felt that such sufferings constituted a bond of peculiar tenderness between Him and them.

http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=010

In Luke 12:5 Jamieson, Fausset, Brown also show that this same "Fiery hell" rather than "the grave - HADES" of Rev 20 is the focus -- Just as I did.

5. Fear Him . . . Fear Him--how striking the repetition here! Only the one fear would effectually expel the other.
after he hath killed, &c.--Learn here--(1) To play false with one's convictions to save one's life, may fail of its end after all, for God can inflict a violent death in some other and equally formidable way. (2) There is a hell, it seems, for the body as well as the soul; consequently, sufferings adapted to the one as well as the other. (3) Fear of hell is a divinely authorized and needed motive of action even to Christ's "friends." (4) As Christ's meekness and gentleness were not compromised by such harsh notes as these, so those servants of Christ lack their Master's spirit who soften down all such language to please ears "polite." (See on Mr 9:43-48).
http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=012

John and Jacob Abbott point out that in Rev 20 "Hades is the grave"

http://www.studylight.org/com/ain/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020