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Is there really a conflict between Freedom and Sovereignty, if rightly defined?

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DrJamesAch

New Member
Trying to start a personal fight with the new guy again, so soon??? I'll bet Dr. Ach will be glad to know your focus has been diverted.

;)

His attention hasn't been diverted. He's still doing it on another thread, bringing up months old accusations that he can't offer evidence for and then when I bring up the fact that he was infracted for sending a picture of a pig to me knowing I am Jewish, and how he ignores the question I have asked him on 5 separate threads as to how a person can be a Third Class Petty Officer with an E-3 ranking when the minimum rate in the NAVY for that is E-4, he tells me to drop it and says I'm not being a good Christian for not doing what he himself refuses to do!

It's actually more of what I believe his attempt to derail the thread because for the most part, this thread has survived without all the personal off-topic jabs and non sequitur comments until he showed up.

But what do you expect from someone who is a crossbreed from 2 different planets:laugh:
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have asked him on 5 separate threads as to how a person can be a Third Class Petty Officer with an E-3 ranking when the minimum rate in the NAVY for that is E-4, he tells me to drop it and says I'm not being a good Christian for not doing what he himself refuses to do!

But that's like poking an bee hive with a stick man! :confused:

:laugh:
 
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DrJamesAch

New Member
Saying God is Sovereign and not in control of TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of decisions that humans make in this world is the epitome of oxymoron.

It is a self-defeating, self-contradictory, illogical and nonsensical statement.

Saying that God is in control of mans temptations and their confusion when the Bible specifically says that God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33) and does not tempt man to sin (James 1:13) is absurd.

Where in Scripture does it say that God controls all of the thoughts and decisions that humans make? Try doing this WITH SCRIPTURE instead of just saying it HAS TO BE THAT WAY because anything else is "self-defeating". It isn't self-defeating if you have nothing but your own logic to compare it to.

What is contradictory is when you ascribe to God all that confuses men and all the temptations that they face when the Bible clearly says otherwise. So then you either have to find a Biblical authority that supports your view AS WELL AS an explanation for verses such as 1 Cor 14:33, James 1:13, Jeremiah 32:35 that refute your view, or you have to admit that your reasoning is your final authority on this issue, and not the Bible.

Furthermore, what is self-defeating is claiming that man acts in accordance with what God desires, including thinking evil thoughts, and then punishes man for what He WANTS THEM TO DO.
 
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Winman

Active Member
Psalms said:
None of this can happen until we listen and learn. He will not tear down the door that we put up our unbelief everything we put up can not be removed until we listen and learn to His I must. I understand where Spurgeon is coming from, but there is much more to scripture.

This is your view, but this does not accurately represent Calvinism. Calvinism teaches that God can effectually overcome any resistance a sinner might have to listen, learn, and come to Jesus.

According to Irresistible Grace, Jesus could have called every single person in Jerusalem with an irresistible effectual calling, and 100% of the people would have freely come to him. But Jesus himself said they "would not" come.

If Irresistible Grace is true, then one can only logically conclude that Jesus did not sincerely desire the children of Jerusalem to come to him as he plainly said, otherwise he would have caused them to come with Irresistible Grace.

Therefore, Calvinism makes Jesus to appear to be a liar. And this is the doctrine that Charles Spurgeon preached for years.

This is what happens when you trust in a man.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Saying that God is in control of mans temptations and their confusion when the Bible specifically says that God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33) and does not tempt man to sin (James 1:13) is absurd.

So man's temptations are OUTSIDE God's control???

Listen, God does not tempt men to sin. God does not HAVE to tempt men to sin.

God determining that men would sin is not God tempting men to sin.

Men do not NEED to be tempted to sin, for one thing. That's what sinners do- they sin.

Killers kill.
Liars lie.
Sinners sin.

You leep quoting this "God does not tempt men to sin" passage like you really got something there.

But the fact is that God does NOT tempt men to sin- he does not have to.

When I want to round my chickens up I can do it one of two ways- I can tempt them into the cage with food.

But that's not the only way. I can wait until night and easily take them into my hands while they roost.

Tempting them is not the only way to get them to do what I want them to do.

So stop pretending like God determining that men would exist who would be sinners is in ANY WAY equivalent to God having to TEMPT them to sin.



Where in Scripture does it say that God controls all of the thoughts and decisions that humans make?


Are you serious? Do you really need me to show you those Scriptures?

Try doing this WITH SCRIPTURE instead of just saying it HAS TO BE THAT WAY because anything else is "self-defeating". It isn't self-defeating if you have nothing but your own logic to compare it to.

Mature Christians who are theologically astute do not get into proof texting wars like children.

Whenever I say something in this debate, it has the backing of Scripture. Only people who are unfamiliar with Scripture need constant referencing.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
This is your view, but this does not accurately represent Calvinism. Calvinism teaches that God can effectually overcome any resistance a sinner might have to listen, learn, and come to Jesus.

This is a hilarious statement!

So your theology says that God CANNOT "effectually overcome any resistance a sinner might have to listen, learn, and come to Jesus!?!


What a weak god you serve!
 

Winman

Active Member
This is a hilarious statement!

So your theology says that God CANNOT "effectually overcome any resistance a sinner might have to listen, learn, and come to Jesus!?!


What a weak god you serve!

Ok, then I ask you, was Jesus being sincere when he cried over Jerusalem, saying how often he would have gathered the children as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings?

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Do you deny that Jesus plainly said he desired the children of Jerusalem to come to him in this verse?

And according to the doctrine of Irresistible Grace, could not Jesus have simply called all the children of Jerusalem with an irresistible and effectual calling and they would have all come to him?

But according to Jesus himself, these children of Jerusalem would not come to him. Is this not correct?

Therefore, isn't it completely logical to conclude if IG is true that Jesus did NOT desire these persons to come to him?

Doesn't that make Jesus appear to be a liar?

Answer honestly if you dare.
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
So man's temptations are OUTSIDE God's control???

Listen, God does not tempt men to sin. God does not HAVE to tempt men to sin.

God determining that men would sin is not God tempting men to sin.

Men do not NEED to be tempted to sin, for one thing. That's what sinners do- they sin.

Killers kill.
Liars lie.
Sinners sin.

You leep quoting this "God does not tempt men to sin" passage like you really got something there.

But the fact is that God does NOT tempt men to sin- he does not have to.

When I want to round my chickens up I can do it one of two ways- I can tempt them into the cage with food.

But that's not the only way. I can wait until night and easily take them into my hands while they roost.

Tempting them is not the only way to get them to do what I want them to do.

So stop pretending like God determining that men would exist who would be sinners is in ANY WAY equivalent to God having to TEMPT them to sin.






Are you serious? Do you really need me to show you those Scriptures?



Mature Christians who are theologically astute do not get into proof texting wars like children.

Whenever I say something in this debate, it has the backing of Scripture. Only people who are unfamiliar with Scripture need constant referencing.

Like I said, not one single Scripture to support your theory, and without Biblical support, a theory is all that it is.

Are you really listening to your logic?

*God CONTROLS the TRILLIONS OF THOUGHTS
*God does not tempt man to sin

Where does sin come from? It comes from mans lustful and idolatrous THOUGHTS. Mark 7:20-21, James 4:1-2. "As a man THINKETH in his heart, SO IS HE" Proverbs 23:7. Man's sinful actions are directly related to how they think. If how they think and WHAT THEY ARE is DETERMINED by God and as you say, "GOD CONTROLS THE TRILLIONS OF THOUGHTS OF MEN" then GOD CAUSED THEM TO SIN.

If man has no free will, and he can not choose to do good, then something is CAUSING HIS CHOICES. Even if you claim that "man sins not because he chooses to but because it is his nature to choose to", SOMEONE CAUSED HIS NATURE if there was never a choice to be evil. Calvinism leads to God CAUSING MANS DEPRAVITY. You can't have an equation where 1+1+1+1+1=5 and produce the same results by altering the equations in between. If you change ONE dynamic in the equation, YOU CHANGE THEM ALL and the results are inconsistent. Calvinism can not claim that God controls all thoughts, and then change one of the variables in the equation that claims God doesn't tempt man and the equation still come out consistently to avoid the logical conclusion that God is the author of sin and the cause of depravity in the Calvinist system.

And your analogy of the chickens if flawed here:
Tempting them is not the only way to get them to do what I want them to do.

This goes right back to what I said about God DESIRING that men sin. You admit that you have alternatives with the chicken based upon what you WANT the chicken to do. By default then, God WANTS men to sin. For God to be sovereign and holy, He can not WANT sin or evil. Habakkuk 1:13 is clear that God does not even look at sin. To make your theology justify God determining the thoughts of man, you have to make God DESIRE the damnation of the sinner, and WANT men to commit sin and that defies that very nature of who God is.
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Saying God is Sovereign and not in control of TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of decisions that humans make in this world is the epitome of oxymoron.

It is a self-defeating, self-contradictory, illogical and nonsensical statement.

You obviously haven't taken that class that I suggested on Basic Logic and Critical Thinking Skills, have you? :rolleyes:
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
This is your view, but this does not accurately represent Calvinism. Calvinism teaches that God can effectually overcome any resistance a sinner might have to listen, learn, and come to Jesus.

According to Irresistible Grace, Jesus could have called every single person in Jerusalem with an irresistible effectual calling, and 100% of the people would have freely come to him. But Jesus himself said they "would not" come.

If Irresistible Grace is true, then one can only logically conclude that Jesus did not sincerely desire the children of Jerusalem to come to him as he plainly said, otherwise he would have caused them to come with Irresistible Grace.

Therefore, Calvinism makes Jesus to appear to be a liar. And this is the doctrine that Charles Spurgeon preached for years.

This is what happens when you trust in a man.

Just because someone claims to be a Calvinist does not mean they are or you trust ever thing they say.

Most people are sheep following someone or something. Peter's are few.

John 21:17
The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
This is a hilarious statement!

So your theology says that God CANNOT "effectually overcome any resistance a sinner might have to listen, learn, and come to Jesus!?!


What a weak god you serve!

That works both ways, are you saying that God CAN NOT choose to save men by demanding that they choose to repent and turn to Him of their own free will? I believe the Calvinist is much more dogmatic about that question then the Non Calvinist is about yours. And we can explain it without adding the unbiblical "effectual" term to salvation.
 

Winman

Active Member
Just because someone claims to be a Calvinist does not mean they are or you trust ever thing they say.

Most people are sheep following someone or something. Peter's are few.

John 21:17
The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.

Whether you are a Calvinist or not is up to you. I am not talking about you, I am talking about Charles Spurgeon. Charles Spurgeon believed in Irresisitible Grace, I showed you an actual sermon of his on the subject.

If Spurgeon was correct and Irresistible Grace is a true Bible doctrine, then Jesus could have easily caused every person in Jerusalem to come to him. But Jesus did not do that did he?

Now, that would be OK if you also believe God only desires some men to be saved, but the problem here is that Jesus plainly and clearly said how often he would have gathered Jerusalem's children as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings.

Now THAT is a problem, because if Irresistible Grace is true, then Jesus appears to have lied here. He talked like he wanted to save these people, and Calvinism says he easily could have saved all these people, but he in fact did not.

Why are you playing games, you know what I am saying is accurate. Calvinism makes Jesus to appear to be a liar in Matthew 23:37.

The only way you can get out of this is to take the "I" out of TULIP.
 
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quantumfaith

Active Member
This is a hilarious statement!

So your theology says that God CANNOT "effectually overcome any resistance a sinner might have to listen, learn, and come to Jesus!?!


What a weak god you serve!


Luke, please be cautious about making statements like this. You KNOW WM worships the same God as do you. Yes his understanding of God and his "properties" differ from you...sometimes profoundly.
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
Whether you are a Calvinist or not is up to you. I am not talking about you, I am talking about Charles Spurgeon. Charles Spurgeon believed in Irresisitible Grace, I showed you an actual sermon of his on the subject.

If Spurgeon was correct and Irresistible Grace is a true Bible doctrine, then Jesus could have easily caused every person in Jerusalem to come to him. But Jesus did not do that did he?

Now, that would be OK if you also believe God only desires some men to be saved, but the problem here is that Jesus plainly and clearly said how often he would have gathered Jerusalem's children as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings.

Now THAT is a problem, because if Irresistible Grace is true, then Jesus appears to have lied here. He talked like he wanted to save these people, and Calvinism says he easily could have saved all these people, but he in fact did not.

Why are you playing games, you know what I am saying is accurate. Calvinism makes Jesus to appear to be a liar in Matthew 23:37.

The only way you can get out of this is to take the "I" out of TULIP.

"Does not the text mean that it is the wish of God that men should be saved? The word "wish" gives as much force to the original as it really requires, and the passage should run thus—"whose wish it is that all men should be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth." As it is my wish that it should be so, as it is your wish that it might be so, so it is God's wish that all men should be saved; for, assuredly, he is not less benevolent than we are. Then comes the question, "But if he wishes it to be so, why does he not make it so? " Beloved friend, have you never heard that a fool may ask a question which a wise man cannot answer, and, if that be so, I am sure a wise person, like yourself, can ask me a great many questions which, fool as I am, I am yet not foolish enough to try to answer. Your question is only one form of the great debate of all the ages,—"If God be infinitely good and powerful, why does not his power carry out to the full all his beneficence?" It is God's wish that the oppressed should go free, yet there are many oppressed who are not free. It is God's wish that the sick should not suffer. Do you doubt it? Is it not your own wish? And yet the Lord does not work a miracle to heal every sick person. It is God's wish that his creatures should be happy. Do you deny that? He does not interpose by any miraculous agency to make us all happy, and yet it would be wicked to suppose that he does not wish the happiness of all the creatures that he has made. He has an infinite benevolence which, nevertheless, is not in all points worked out by his infinite omnipotence; and if anybody asked me why it is not, I cannot tell. I have never set up to be an explainer of all difficulties, and I have no desire to do so."

C.H. Spurgeon

If you want to know why Spurgeon said what he said, you can't disregard other things he said. I tried and searched throughout the scripture to find why one believes and another does not, why one is irresistible drawn and why another is not.

We by the Holy Spirit can talk, plead, beg all day long that one will come to Christ and if they do not listen and learn they will never come and we have to dust our boots and move on and another who does listen and learns comes.

I learned many things from Spurgeon and there is more to learn past where he got to. If we surround ourselves only by those who tell us what our itching ears want to hear then we will never grow further than them.

Spurgeon is not my Rabbi
 
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Winman

Active Member
For the non-Cal, it is easy to explain why many that God desires would be saved are not. We believe that all men have free will and can make a choice to trust Jesus or not. So, Christ could desire that all the children of Jerusalem would be saved, but they rejected him and so were not.

But Calvinism has a problem, as Calvinism teaches that God could irresistibly regenerate any person he wants to, and this person would absolutely trust Jesus and be saved. This is what your man Charles Spurgeon believed.

So, in the Calvinist scheme it makes no sense when God or Jesus says he desires someone should be saved and they are not.

Spurgeon basically says NOTHING in response to this, he says he cannot answer it. That is not an answer, and it certainly is not an answer that agrees with scripture.

The real answer is that men have the ability to both accept or reject Jesus, and this is why many men that God desires should be saved perish, because they reject God and refuse to trust Christ.

And, it is also the answer that Irresistible Grace (and all of Calvinism) is false doctrine not supported by scripture.
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
For the non-Cal, it is easy to explain why many that God desires would be saved are not. We believe that all men have free will and can make a choice to trust Jesus or not. So, Christ could desire that all the children of Jerusalem would be saved, but they rejected him and so were not.

But Calvinism has a problem, as Calvinism teaches that God could irresistibly regenerate any person he wants to, and this person would absolutely trust Jesus and be saved. This is what your man Charles Spurgeon believed.

So, in the Calvinist scheme it makes no sense when God or Jesus says he desires someone should be saved and they are not.

Spurgeon basically says NOTHING in response to this, he says he cannot answer it. That is not an answer, and it certainly is not an answer that agrees with scripture.

The real answer is that men have the ability to both accept or reject Jesus, and this is why many men that God desires should be saved perish, because they reject God and refuse to trust Christ.

And, it is also the answer that Irresistible Grace (and all of Calvinism) is false doctrine not supported by scripture.

"Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing. Philosophy and religion both discard at once the very thought of free-will; and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, "If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright." It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free-will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that he gives both; that he is "Alpha and Omega" in the salvation of men."

C.H. Spurgeon

Our will is wicked God will is good either we follow our own will or God's will there is no middle ground.

Matthew 26:42
He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

Matthew 7:21
[ True and False Disciples ] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


I pray that the Fathers will be done not my will. Our will, that is a slave to sin is death, the will of God is life. By our free agency you are either following our will that leads to death or His will they leads to life. The flesh our will has to be beat into submission and to say as Jesus not my will, but your will the Fathers be done.

I believe we have to deny our will and the only way is to realize it is a slave to sin and we can't trust it, but we can trust the will of God found in His word.

To repent turn to God through Jesus Christ and live.
 
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HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
On this one I agree with winman.

If a person can grieve the Spirit of God (as the scripture declares) then he can resist Him as well.

Paul had two which resisited the offer of grace - Felix and Agrippa.

HankD​
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
On this one I agree with winman.

If a person can grieve the Spirit of God (as the scripture declares) then he can resist Him as well.

Paul had two which resisited the offer of grace - Felix and Agrippa.

HankD​

They are resisting, but it is not resisting grace. If they listen and learn what grace is they can't resist it. What God trough Jesus Christ did for them

I believe in irresistible grace, and that men can resist to listen and learn.

It is foolish to believe people don't resist, but they resist to listen and learn for them to come to Christ.

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
 
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Herald

New Member
On this one I agree with winman.

If a person can grieve the Spirit of God (as the scripture declares) then he can resist Him as well.

Paul had two which resisited the offer of grace - Felix and Agrippa.

HankD​

Honestly, it depends on the presupposition we bring into the discussion. Those who interpret Scripture from a Reformed or Calvinistic hermeneutic are going to see such resisting as just a continuation of the fallen state and inability that goes along with it (1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 8:7). The free will or Arminian hermeneutic is going to view resisting the Holy Spirit as proof that man is not completely dead in sin; still possessing the ability to exercise faith pre-regeneration. That is why these discussions are so circular. They all wind up in the same place after a while.
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
On this one I agree with winman.

If a person can grieve the Spirit of God (as the scripture declares) then he can resist Him as well.

Paul had two which resisited the offer of grace - Felix and Agrippa.

HankD​

Stephen had a whole bunch that resisted and Acts 7:51 specifically says so. A verse that anytime you mention it, Calvinists never address it head on. They treat it like it isn't even the Bible and accuse you of being an Arminian if you read it literally.

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Acts 7:51.

God knowing the future, knew ahead of time that there would be a belief system called Calvinism, and I believe put verses in the Bible as plain as the nose on ones face that smacks their doctrine head on with verses like this.
 
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