Is there salvation outside of Christ?

[Doubting Thomas]

Jesusrocks,

Excellent post!

 

[tamborine lady]

Col 1-23 ****************** and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven;

God has ways to reach everyone!

Matthew 24-14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


My statement still stands: no one is saved without Jesus.

Tam

 

[DHK]

If anyone could be saved outside of Christ, then Christ would be found a liar, and his death and resurrection would all be in vain. The Bible says that he died for the sins of all the world, not just the sins of the USA, or of the western civilized nations! What an abhorrent thought!

One must trust the Word of God, God's promises, whether we understand them or not. For example:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Does God mean what he says. Does he provide salvation to all men--give the opportunity for all men to be saved? That is the teaching of this verse. How he does that is up to him, and even if we don't understand it we must accept his statements by faith, and account them as true. God doesn't lie.
DHK

 

[Rev. Lowery]

Why are we having this conversation its stupid infact its so stupid that I cant believe christians are having it.......

I'll say this ahhhhhhhhhhhh wake up christians get in the Bible "KJV" and read.


Rev. Jerry D. Lowery D.D.

 

[Me4Him]

In a "Nutshell", the gospel is explaining the "LAW" of Death for sin, while Jesus is the "REDEEMER" from the "LAW" of death for sin.

The "WORD" never returns "VOID", Christians forget that because none were saved, the "mission" was nevertheless "accomplished", they heard, and it will be used as a "WITNESS" against those who heard/reject it.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

How important is hearing the name Jesus, "VERY", because "NONE" comes to the Father except "THROUGH JESUS", God won't even hear a sinner.

Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners:

Those who died under the OT were kept (Captive by sin) in "Abraham's Bosom" until Jesus died and went and preached to those "SOULS" while he was in the tomb, those who believed, were led "Captive" by Jesus when he ascended.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (by sin)

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Jesus didn't die for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD", for nothing, God isn't willing for "ANY" to perish, if he made provisions for those who died under the OT to hear the gospel, I'm sure he'll arrange for "EVERYONE" to hear, even if they're already dead.

Personally, I think we only need to worry about what we are responsible for, leave the rest to God.

 

[D28guy]

riverm,

"That’s the bases of my question. What if I was born in some remote part of the world and never heard the Gospel of this man named “Jesus”, but as you said, creation tells me that there is a God and so do my parents, only the God my tribe worships is some spirit God that rides on the wind."

God will reveal to your heart that He is not riding on the wind, He created the wind.

"My conscience tells me what’s right and what’s wrong and the wrong I do, I feel guilty for and have remorse and chose not to do that wrong anymore."

Thats commendable but if its presented as a way to obtain eternal life, then its a falsehood. A false gospel. One that will not save anyone. We are not saved by "choosing to not do the wrong". We can not be saved by not doing the wrong, or by doing the right.

We are saved gods unmerited and un earned mercy. By having as a heart attitude "God, I'm hopelessly unacceptable. Please be merciful to me, a sinner. And embracing Christ.

"Will I be cast into Hell or will God judge me based on my works, since I had no clue about a man named Jesus."

You will be judged based on your works, and found guilty.

"Do you believe that I, in the above scenario, may have the opportunity to hear the Gospel after I die and will have the chance to accept or reject the Gospel?"

Well, with all my heart I would certainly want that. I dont want anyone to be lost. But based on the testimony of Gods scriptures, I dont believe so...no.

"It is appointed unto man once to die, after this the judgement"

For the saved...the "Beama" seat of judgment...the judgement seat of rewards or loss of rewards.

For the lost...the Great White Throne judgment.

God bless,

Mike

 

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by D28guy:
Having re-read my last post, I just want to make sure it isnt misunderstood.

I'm saying that none of those who have never heard of Christ can be saved.

But not because...darn the luck!...they were unfortunate enough to have never heard the saving gospel, but because they will be judged and found guilty of pridefully rejecting whatever degree of truth was revealed to them through creation itself.

God bless,

Mike

I pretty much see it this way, but was told early on that if a lost soul sought out the Lord, He would send someone to evangelize them.

And I agree with Rev. Lowrey. This is very basic academics.

 

[Frogman]

No one, not even those who do not hear the gospel message or the name of Christ are saved outside of Christ.

All who are redeemed are redeemed inside the Everlasting Covenant of Grace.

Who stood above Jacob's ladder in Gen. 28?

A gospel preacher?

Or the Lord God of Isaac and of thy father Abraham?

Who are Israel? They of the circumcision only? Or are they who are of faith counted for the seed? (plural) being in the same faith as faithful Abraham?

Even the pigmy, lost deep in the jungles of Africa, never hearing the name of the Lord but moved upon by the Spirit of God, through which the Lord offered Himself without spot, shall be moved to faith unto righteousness, even as it was accounted to Abram, so shall it be accounted to this modern, lost man.

Bro. Dallas

 

[UUall]

Your saved to the kingdom. You will not get there without faith and belief in Christ. A 1000 yrs later, the rest will be judge. Eternal life for some (judged by their works)and the rest not so fortunate. Guys like Ghandi may attain eternal life at that time. He even knew of Christ but choose to follow a different path.

 

[billwald]

"Adam damned himself and all his descendents to hell in the Garden of Eden."

One can't getbthis from reading the text of Genesis. One gets it from reading the Bible backwards after one has decided one's theology.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by jesusrocks:
My opinion...

No, no one is saved outside of Christ.

What then of those who have not heard the Gospel message (for there are such people)? Those who have not heard the name of Jesus, but who have followed the Truth insofar as they know it--who have strived to live good upstanding lives in spite of their situation CAN be saved... BUT, this Salvation is not a salvation apart from Jesus Christ because it was still the grace of Christ that allowed them to live that good life--whether they were able to know and recognize that because of their situation is a moot point. God is God, He can save whom He wills to save, and we would do well to remember that Christ sits in the Seat of Judgment and not us. We cannot say who has gone to Hell because we are not the ones with the power of damnation.

So are you saying unregenerated people can be saved?

 

[valueoftruth]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jesusrocks:
My opinion...

No, no one is saved outside of Christ.

What then of those who have not heard the Gospel message (for there are such people)? Those who have not heard the name of Jesus, but who have followed the Truth insofar as they know it--who have strived to live good upstanding lives in spite of their situation CAN be saved... BUT, this Salvation is not a salvation apart from Jesus Christ because it was still the grace of Christ that allowed them to live that good life--whether they were able to know and recognize that because of their situation is a moot point. God is God, He can save whom He wills to save, and we would do well to remember that Christ sits in the Seat of Judgment and not us. We cannot say who has gone to Hell because we are not the ones with the power of damnation.

So are you saying unregenerated people can be saved? </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus rocks, you need to reed Romans chapter 1. The Bible says that no one has an excuse. All 300+ million Muslims in the world will go to hell, PERIOD. That's a pretty nasty statistic, but you know what? There were only 8 people who were saved during the flood! The rest of the world went to hell! Bad statistic isn't it? Here's another one, only Lot, his wife, and 2 daughters escaped Sodom and Gomorrha, the rest of the cities perished!

God gave us a Narrow Way. Those who agree with this kind of "good living" thinking really need to look at themselves, and examine their own salvation.

The Narrow Way is the Only Way!
http://www.valueoftruth.com/narrowway.html

---Brian

 

[zealouswest]

Christ is the Bridegroom. Salvation MEANS attending the marriage of the Lamb to his Bride, the Church.

As such, there is no salvation which excludes Christ.

However we are only gulty for what we know.

in John 15:22 Christ says :

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

Without knowledge of Christ, we ARE in an objectively grave but different state. God judges accordingly - and that is all we need to know.

Scripture tells us that God wills that all be saved. Now salvation is a two-way street so he cannot MAKE us saved...but he DOES present the possiblity to all, even the secluded hypothetical pigmy in the middle of darkest Africa.

 

[zealouswest]

I use this passage from Lewis often, but it fits so often. In "The Chronicals of Narnia" Aslan, the Christ-like lion, says to Emeth, a Calormen soldier who served the wicked god Tash, but who served him because he desired to serve God whatever that entialed and only knew of Tash, that "All find what they truely seek."

In Emeth's own words:

Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc [emperor] of the world, and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, "Son, thou art welcome." But I said, "Alas, Lord, I am no son of Thine but the servant of Tash." He answered, "Child, all the service thou has done to Tash, I account as service done to me." Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questionecd the Glorious One and said, "Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one?" The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, "It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him, for I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore, if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then though he says the name of Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child?" I said, "Lord, thou knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek."

 

[Avshalom]

Hello all,

I have two observations regarding the eternal destiny of those how never had a chance to hear but strived to follow their consciences.

1. The difference between the OT and NT dispensations regarding salvation

The question is, how were people saved before Christ? Not the Jews, who had special provisions from God, but the Gentiles, who only have the light of conscience. Do you think they all went to hell? My God-given sense of justice revolts against such a thought. I think it is safe to affirm that not all heathen went to hell.

Now I ask you: why would you think this suddenly changed after Christ came?

2. Regarding the white throne judgement

I have often heared preachers saying that the great white throne judgment is only for the wicked and all unfortunate souls who ever appear there will be damned. But this is definitely not what the Bible says. Let's have a look at the passage in question:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now have a look at the last sentence. Does it give you the impression that everybody will be cast into the lake of fire? To me definitely not.

I am looking forward to your comments on these two points.

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 20:4-5 identifies clearly - those over whom "The second death has no power". It is those raised in the "The First resurrection" (Rev 20:5) the one just prior to the 1000 years. The one that starts the 1000 year clock ticking. the FIRST general resurrection future to John's day!

The SAME one we see in 1Cor 15 and 1Thess 4. The "resurrection of the righteous". The "Dead in Christ".

So the question is NOT - how many saved people can you get to come up in the SECOND resurrection (the one AFTER the 1000 years) instead of the FIRST -- the question is WILL there be people in that FIRST resurrection who are saved - but "unninformed" about it - and even about "the right story".

You admit that Jews were SAVED before the Cross - were they STILL saved after the cross - EVEN if they had not yet "accepted the updated story"??

OR did the saved Jews all become "instantly lost" at the cross?!!

IF NOT - then "having the latest update on the story" is not what saved them!

Romans 2:13-16 deals with the same point for those without "access to the story" at all. Those with no scripture AT ALL!

Rom 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Christ is "still" the only way in and in this case we see that Christ Himself is the judge of those who are saved - and yet "unninformed". Those who "show" the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit -- the Law of God "written on the heart".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As for those in Rev 20 after the 1000 years - they are all "judged by their works". In Romans 3 "By the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified".

 

[Avshalom]

Hi Bob,

I tend to believe that a requirement for salvation in any dispensation is to live up to whatever light you have from God. For the heathen, it is their conscience alone. For the OT Jews, it was the Mosaic law in addition to that. For us it is the belief in Christ apart from the Mosaic law.

Any Jew or Gentile must definitely believe the "updated version" if they are given reasonable evidence. If they refuse, they act wilfully against received light and they cannot be in a state of justification (considered righteous) before God.

However, keeping a pure conscience was essential in all dispensations like it is today, and this is where many people stumble. They think this is legalism or "adding to the finished work of Christ" as if that alone would save them. Unlike heathen, a Christian's conscience should be much more enlightened by the Bible and nobody should act aginst it if they want to be considered rightous by God.

I personally believe that whatever you do that conscience accuses you of is sin. The Bible says that if our conscience condemns us, God is greater than our conscience and he will condemn us too.

Now, I do believe that all those who are ever saved are saved on the account of the atonement of Christ, even if they were not aware of that during their lives. This is the case with all the OT saints, even before the Mosaic law was given.

Obedience to whatever light they have is what God considers righteousness. See the case of Job, who had neither the Mosaic law nor Christ, but obeyed his conscience and his limited knowledge of God. What an endorsement he got from Him! "That man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil".

The question is wether all saved people in all dispensations will make it to the first resurrection. It is very likely so, but I would not bet my life on it. Those in the first resurrection are definitely saved, no question about it. I was just wondering if those at the second resurrection will be all cast into the lake of fire. This does not seem very likely to me.

Shalom

PS. The Bible says repeatedly that all people will be judged by they works, so why not the Christians? You say that by the works of the Law sall no flesh be justified before Him. I agree, but this refers to the rituals of the Mosaic law. Consider the Pharisees. They were obeying the letter of the law perfectly, but everybody sees that they were not righteous. They did not have a pure conscience at all. All their outer works were a cloak for their inward iniquity.

[ January 14, 2006, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: Avshalom ]

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The excerpt from the Chronicles of Narnia above do not show Christ at all. The Bible says that all who serve satan will not enter heaven. CS Lewis was painting a picture of if you are faithful in being evil, you will enter heaven. A very dangerous doctrine.

 

[Linda64]

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

Was Jesus lying when He said this? With the technology today, missionaries have gone out all over the entire world to witness Christ to the lost.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 1:18-25)

It's a lie from the pit of hell itself to say that man can be saved outside of Christ. Did Christ die in vain?