Is there salvation outside of Christ?

[Tom Butler]

Romans 2:14 provides us basis of condemnation for those who never hear the gospel

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

The key phrase is "..are a law to themselves."

I take this to mean that each individual has an instinctive sense of right and wrong--their own moral code, if you will. Their problem is that they can't even keep perfectly their own law, and that will condemn them. Now consider James 2:10

"For whoseover shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

That is the basis of condemnation for those who have heard the law and the gospel preached. Every person has broken the Law, whether it is the Law of the Scriptures or the pagan's own law.

We all are also condemned if we reject the light that we have. The pagan has rejected the light of creation, thus is without excuse. Others have rejected the Light (Jesus Christ). Both groups will give account at their judgment and will be forced to acknowledge that God is just in his judgement.

Further, if by some stretch of the imagination the pagans will be saved without hearing the gospel, then for heaven's sake, please let's not send missionaries to them, for they might reject the gospel and be lost.

Still further, whether you are a Calvinist or a non-Calvinist (or Arminian), both views agree that the number who will be saved is fixed. Calvinists hold that God has elected some and will send the gospel to them so they may hear it, repent of sin, and trust in Christ's finished work. Arminians hold that God knows who will hear the gospel and accept it, and elects them on that basis. Either way, no others will be saved, only the elect. All others will be condemned, including the pagan who sinned against his own law, and the others who sinned against the Law of the Scriptures.

Tom Butler

 

[BobRyan]

Showing the "LAW written on the tables of the human heart" is the promise of Heb 8 "New Covnenant" and is the work of the "Holy Spirit on the Human heart" as Paul states in Romans 2 for those who do not have scripture at all.

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. [/b]

Rom 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Paul's argument to the Jews is that THESE are GETTING IN - EVEN though they do not even HAVE access to scripture -- and there is no "partial favoritism" being played "in favor of Jews" because they HAVE scripture and are "Special" while Gentiles are remain outside, without scripture, unninformed and cursed.

The shocking news is that THOSE are being transformed by the Spirit under the New Covenant such that they "SHOW the LAW of GOD on the heart".

Something that only happens via the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit according to Heb 8.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Tom Butler:

Further, if by some stretch of the imagination the pagans will be saved without hearing the gospel, then for heaven's sake, please let's not send missionaries to them, for they might reject the gospel and be lost.

The basics of the ONE Gospel message that goes into all the World via nature.

Rom 10

12 for there is no distinction between Jew and greek; for the same lord is lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on him;
13 for “whoever will call on the name of the lord will be saved. ”
14how then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 how will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
16 however, they did not all heed the good news; for isaiah says, “lord, who has believed our report?”

Now the part everyone knows --

Romans 10
17 so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

“their voice has gone out into all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows

Psalms 19
1 the heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Clearly Paul is appealing (again) to nature's voice in declaring the truth of God - so that "they (the people - Jew and gentile) did hear" - fulfilling the
condition –

And using that Ps 19 context – Paul then continues…

Romans 10
vs 17so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

and this - is in perfect agreement with the opening context of the book of Romans - chapter 1.

Romans 1:
18 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unGodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20for since the creation of the world his invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Clearly - they are without excuse because God did manifest himself as described in the text and still they refused the God that "draws all men unto him".

21for even though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

So although Paul points to the witness of God's creation in Ps 19 as proving that
Israel is "without excuse" and did have the opportunity to "believe" - he also points to the motive of jealousy as God's witness to non-Hebrew people results in salvation.

Romans 10
19but I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,
by a nation without understanding will I anger you.”

20and Isaiah is very bold and says,
“I was found by those who did not seek me,
I became manifest to those who did not ask for me.”
21 but as for Israel he says, “all the day long i have stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

Again – Paul emphasis the Gospel message of Isaiah (the Gospel prophet) confirming Paul’s statement that the Gospel message was given and that men rejected it then as they do today.

Indeed - God's chosen race, royal priesthood, holy nation - seemed to be rebelling against the God that called them, that chose them - in spite of the witness we see proclaimed in the OT and in Psalms 19 regarding creation itself.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Linda64:
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

Was Jesus lying when He said this? With the technology today, missionaries have gone out all over the entire world to witness Christ to the lost.

Not lying. Telling the truth because no matter how much the "person knows" Christ "still exists" and still works. He is not dependant on the "person knowing".

John 1
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

It is no lie. "Every man" -- everyone of mankind is reached by Him for "He IS the light that ocming into the world enlightens EVERY man"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Avshalom]

Thank you all for the very interesting posts. This a tough question indeed and personally I am not really convinced by either position.

I am still pondering on how the OT Jews could be saved if indeed "he who offends in one point is guilty of all". None of theme were perfect anyway. I think therefore that even before Christ salvation was by grace and not really by works. It is hard for me to accept that God radicaly changed in the way he deals with mankind.

I must admit here that there are many, too many things I do not understand yet. It seems this is not the case with everybody on this forum. Quite a few have the impression they figured out everything already and show a "holy indignation" if you dare contradict them.

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. ... For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

Amen

 

[Marcia]

OT saints were saved by grace through faith, just as we are today. They did not have the full revelation of Christ but did have revelation of God and the promise of a Messiah.

Those who have not heard of Christ have the evidence of God in nature and in their conscience (Rom 1 and 2) but they cannot be saved this way. This evidence is what condemns them, not what saves them, because no one can meet God's standards of righteousness outside of Christ. Rom. 1 and 2 tells us that even with this evidence, men turn away from truth.

No one can be saved outside Christ today. As for those who may believe there is a true God but have not heard the gospel, I have no doubt God can send them the gospel as He did with the Ethiopian.

More and more today, Christians are softening the words of God that those outside Christ are under God's wrath (John 3:35-37). Justice would be for all of us to go to hell; grace is that Christ came and paid the penalty for sins, thus saving many.

No one who worships a false god (as the person who worships Tash does) can be saved; God condemns utterly and absolutely the worship of false gods.

 

[BobRyan]

You equate "not heard of Christ" with "outside of Christ". I don't think the "physical hearing of the person" is what makes the difference.

As Romans 10 says "surely they have never HEARD have they?" and then points to the witness of nature - whereas Gal 3 and 1 Peter 1 point to the witness of the OT saints and prophets.

How much you know is not the point - the point is whether you respond to the Holy Spirit that "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

The piont is not how MUCH light you have - but whether or not you respond TO the light "that coming into the world enlightens EVERYONE of mankind" John 1.

Naman comes to Elisha after his conversion and asks for forgiveness for the fact that when he returns home to the king of Syria he will be with the King as the King is worshipping before a false god - but in his heart will still remain loyal to the true God of the Bible.

To him that "knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Avshalom:
Thank you all for the very interesting posts. This a tough question indeed and personally I am not really convinced by either position.

I am still pondering on how the OT Jews could be saved if indeed "he who offends in one point is guilty of all". None of theme were perfect anyway. I think therefore that even before Christ salvation was by grace and not really by works.

Indeed.

In Gal 1:6-9 Paul claims that in all of time there has only been "ONE Gospel" and those that try to preach "another Gospel" do not really have one - and never did.

In Heb 4:1-3 we find of the OT saints "The Gospel was preached to US JUST as it was to THEM"

One Gospel - one way of salvation - in all ages!

It is hard for me to accept that God radicaly changed in the way he deals with mankind.

He didn't.

I must admit here that there are many, too many things I do not understand yet. It seems this is not the case with everybody on this forum. Quite a few have the impression they figured out everything already and show a "holy indignation" if you dare contradict them.

"More heat than light" - eh?

That is the nature of a board of this type. (You should have seen the Calvinist-Arminia section that they closed down a few months ago).

But the good news is that you can also find good information in this format as well.

Some of my fellow Bible students on this board who have joined with me in exposing numerous errors in the traditions of men -- will 'one some subject" eventually differ with my views - on something. That is no problem at all for me.

I do not come here supposing that even the closest of them will see everything "exactly" as I do on all topics. And it does not bother me in the least that this is the case.

In the end we must each read the texts - practice exegesis rather than eisegesis - and then choose the view that fits all the texts "best" leaving you with the least "problem texts" for the other side to hold up in objection to your views.

In Christ,

Bob