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Is there Salvation outside of Christ?
- Thread starter Dr. Bob
- Start date
All about Grace
New Member
Bob,
What is different from Packer's question and how OT saints were redeemed? In both instances salvation is brought through the sacrifice of the Messiah. Is John 14.6 applicable to those who lived pre-crucifixion?
I agree with previous posts that these men are not saying this possible means of salvation is OUTSIDE of Jesus' sacrifice. And there is biblical evidence that God is reconciling the world to himself through Jesus Christ ... Paul does not seem to be talking about individual salvation in that context.
What is different from Packer's question and how OT saints were redeemed? In both instances salvation is brought through the sacrifice of the Messiah. Is John 14.6 applicable to those who lived pre-crucifixion?
I agree with previous posts that these men are not saying this possible means of salvation is OUTSIDE of Jesus' sacrifice. And there is biblical evidence that God is reconciling the world to himself through Jesus Christ ... Paul does not seem to be talking about individual salvation in that context.
Galatians 3:8
How did Abraham receive the Gospel when in his time there was no scripture; and Mark tells us of the beginning of the Gospel of Christ, and the NT describes the manifestation of the righteousness of God, the very image of His person, the promised seed traced all the way back to the prophecy to Adam (Gen. 3).
Again, Amen Sister Helen.
Bro. Dallas
How did Abraham receive the Gospel when in his time there was no scripture; and Mark tells us of the beginning of the Gospel of Christ, and the NT describes the manifestation of the righteousness of God, the very image of His person, the promised seed traced all the way back to the prophecy to Adam (Gen. 3).
Again, Amen Sister Helen.
Bro. Dallas
From Adam to Abraham to Moses to John the Baptist, all looked forward in faith to the coming of Messiah/promised seed, etc. They "believed" the revelation of the coming salvation by faith.
Just preaching on Rom 4 and it is amazing. We think Abe didn't know much, just kinda generically believed. Wrong.
God revealed to him of the coming SEED (not seeds, Gal 3 reminds us) that was coming to save us. Job spoke of his REDEEMER living.
Salvation has always been thru faith in Jesus alone - known/understood as Redeemer, Seed, etc, but still by Jesus alone.
Just preaching on Rom 4 and it is amazing. We think Abe didn't know much, just kinda generically believed. Wrong.
God revealed to him of the coming SEED (not seeds, Gal 3 reminds us) that was coming to save us. Job spoke of his REDEEMER living.
Salvation has always been thru faith in Jesus alone - known/understood as Redeemer, Seed, etc, but still by Jesus alone.
MikeinGhana
New Member
Is it not frightfully unfair that this new life should be confined to people who have heard of Christ and been able to believe in Him?
Statements like this are typical of the humanistic philosophy we are steeped in these days. God said it, just believe. Salvation is through Christ alone!
Statements like this are typical of the humanistic philosophy we are steeped in these days. God said it, just believe. Salvation is through Christ alone!
Acumenical
Member
Of course, salvation is found only in Christ. If you don't believe that, why be a Christian (there are probably easier religions out there)?
To be fair to J.I. Packer, it's pretty clear from the context of the words cited above, and from his many other books, that he does not endorse any form of universalism. At most, he concedes that God may save someone through the grace of Christ who had not actually yet heard of Christ, but he is a long way from accepting this idea as scriptural. As for C.S. Lewis, the context of his words is in a chapter about behavior, not salvation. Lewis could be saying only that non-believers sometimes act more Christian than Christians do, and that this may be a sign that they will eventually become full believers in Him. I don't think he is endorsing universalism either (although, admittedly, he is less theologically precise than Packer). In both cases, it would be best not to jump to conclusions.
I haven't read Yancey or Campolo, but there's no doubt that Clark Pinnock does fall into the camp of inclusivism. He has been on a gradual slide into liberal theology for years, sad to say.
To be fair to J.I. Packer, it's pretty clear from the context of the words cited above, and from his many other books, that he does not endorse any form of universalism. At most, he concedes that God may save someone through the grace of Christ who had not actually yet heard of Christ, but he is a long way from accepting this idea as scriptural. As for C.S. Lewis, the context of his words is in a chapter about behavior, not salvation. Lewis could be saying only that non-believers sometimes act more Christian than Christians do, and that this may be a sign that they will eventually become full believers in Him. I don't think he is endorsing universalism either (although, admittedly, he is less theologically precise than Packer). In both cases, it would be best not to jump to conclusions.
I haven't read Yancey or Campolo, but there's no doubt that Clark Pinnock does fall into the camp of inclusivism. He has been on a gradual slide into liberal theology for years, sad to say.
Yes. The promise is still to you and to your children and to as many as are afar off, to whomsoever God does call.
Those who are regenerated do look for the promised seed, they do know just as Job their redeemer liveth.
Now we are to tell them the Gospel (good news) that work of the kinsman redeemer is completed in Christ that they who are burdened and heavy laden, looking, expecting, anticipating, know He has come.
For too long christianity in general has built up people to know Jesus and has filled churches with people that He does not know, inmho.
Bro. Dallas
There is Biblical evidence of accountability
The wages of sin is death.
All flesh is conceived in sin; born into sin's nature; and sin because they are sinners.
Otherwise, a fictional mysterious age of accountable men, women and children has no Biblical support.
Except that ye be born again, ye cannot see the kingdom of heaven...nor enter into it.
conception is the moment of life; not birth.
Regeneration is the moment of life; gospel faith is the moment of being begotten by the word of truth to the acknowldegment of and obedience to Jesus Christ; there must first be life or there is no hope of being begotten by the gospel.
Bro. Dallas
Dear Brother Phillip,
Sorry.
I simply mean the wages of sin are in the flesh even for a regenerated believer; death still reigns over this present flesh, this present heaven and earth, etc.
(Romans 8:23 discusses the redemption we have at the resurrection, the redemption to wit the adoption of our bodies into that redemption that Christ speaks of in Luke 21 I think..I am not at my computer and don't have my Bible so forgive me for not quoting directly.)
This means that the present body, if not changed from corruptible to incorruptible (in the rapture) will go to that long home of man--the grave.
This includes infants, the mentally incapacitated, etc. The wages of sin over the flesh we are naturally born into is universal.
Is that any better???
Bro. Dallas
All who are conceived in sin are accountable before God, there is no mysterious covering provided for either infants nor the mentally impaired. There is no mysterious age that intellectual capabilities change this for any one of us. At any point we may die in the natural flesh we stand accountable to God for the sin nature.
Sorry.
I simply mean the wages of sin are in the flesh even for a regenerated believer; death still reigns over this present flesh, this present heaven and earth, etc.
(Romans 8:23 discusses the redemption we have at the resurrection, the redemption to wit the adoption of our bodies into that redemption that Christ speaks of in Luke 21 I think..I am not at my computer and don't have my Bible so forgive me for not quoting directly.)
This means that the present body, if not changed from corruptible to incorruptible (in the rapture) will go to that long home of man--the grave.
This includes infants, the mentally incapacitated, etc. The wages of sin over the flesh we are naturally born into is universal.
Is that any better???
Bro. Dallas
All who are conceived in sin are accountable before God, there is no mysterious covering provided for either infants nor the mentally impaired. There is no mysterious age that intellectual capabilities change this for any one of us. At any point we may die in the natural flesh we stand accountable to God for the sin nature.
Paul of Eugene
New Member
Gosh, Dr. Bob, great minds can differ on a subject, and this is news?
Bear in mind that the ones holding out for possible salvation of joe blow in West Papua who never hears of Jesus say it still required Christ's death on the cross, and he could still be lost instead of saved . . .
Bear in mind that Jesus has other names. He is the Truth. He is Love. If He is called on by one of those names, will He refuse to hear?
Bear in mind that the ones holding out for possible salvation of joe blow in West Papua who never hears of Jesus say it still required Christ's death on the cross, and he could still be lost instead of saved . . .
Bear in mind that Jesus has other names. He is the Truth. He is Love. If He is called on by one of those names, will He refuse to hear?
Paul of Eugene, there is nothing in the animistic idolatry of "Joe Blow" of Papua which will tell him Jesus is the Truth or is Love. How is Joe Blow going to learn that Jesus is the Truth if we missionaries do not tell him? The Bible is very, very clear, as I quoted before--"How shall they hear without a preacher?"
No religion on earth--none--teaches that the nature of God is love and holiness, or that there is any other way of salvation than good works. The only "faith" salvation teaching I know of outside of the Gospel of Christ is the worship of "Amida Buddha" in Jodo ("Pure Land") Buddhism, and it still requires that you chant the name of Amida. And it is my belief that they got their teaching from Nestorian missionaries anyway.
Beyond that, Joe Blow's animistic religion will actually turn him away from Christ to his own way of good works. "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isa 53:6)
Has no one on this thread actually ever studied comparative religions? I am shocked at the ignorance of other religions displayed here. What religion in the entire world actually even comes close to the beauty of the Gospel of Christ? How could you people even think that there is enough good in religion to lead someone to the true God?
The montilone (spelling may be wrong) of the Venezuala and Colombian jungle would disagree with you.
In the 1960's when a young man raised Lutheran, confirmed Lutheran but as a teen saved in a Pentecostal (not Baptist) church was led to go to them with a burden to preach and teach the gospel of Jesus Christ, he learned different also. As he learned how to communicate with them he also learned through witnessing funerals they seemed to possess hope.
He questioned their beliefs and they seemed surprised he did not know; they told him how that long ago God came to the earth and walked among men in the flesh but left promising to return and show them his path;
They have been searching for his path since and whenever one of their tribe passed away they prayed that God would guide them into that path.
As far as I am concerned that is receiving the promise afar off, being persuaded of it and embracing it. Was the missionaries' mission in vain because he couldn't get anyone saved? No, because his and our mission is not to get them saved, but to tell them the good news that the promised seed, the kinsman redeemer, the messiah has come in the flesh.
When the sanhedrin, the Pharisee, the Sadducee opposed the preaching of the gospel what did they oppose?
When the apostles preached the gospel to what did they give witness to in great power and great grace was upon them all?
The resurrection from the dead in the name of Jesus Christ the only Begotten Son of God answers both those questions.
It is still a good news message worthy of our telling it for the praise of the glory of His grace alone and not in order that He might fulfill His promise that He must bring those who are not of this flock also.
He came to save His people from their sins and that he does, regardless of how, when, or where we obediently submit to the command to preach the gospel, not one of His shall go down to the grave without possessing the same blessed hope of their redeemer living and that they shall stand and see him with their own eyes and not the eyes of another.
Bro. Dallas Eaton
In the 1960's when a young man raised Lutheran, confirmed Lutheran but as a teen saved in a Pentecostal (not Baptist) church was led to go to them with a burden to preach and teach the gospel of Jesus Christ, he learned different also. As he learned how to communicate with them he also learned through witnessing funerals they seemed to possess hope.
He questioned their beliefs and they seemed surprised he did not know; they told him how that long ago God came to the earth and walked among men in the flesh but left promising to return and show them his path;
They have been searching for his path since and whenever one of their tribe passed away they prayed that God would guide them into that path.
As far as I am concerned that is receiving the promise afar off, being persuaded of it and embracing it. Was the missionaries' mission in vain because he couldn't get anyone saved? No, because his and our mission is not to get them saved, but to tell them the good news that the promised seed, the kinsman redeemer, the messiah has come in the flesh.
When the sanhedrin, the Pharisee, the Sadducee opposed the preaching of the gospel what did they oppose?
When the apostles preached the gospel to what did they give witness to in great power and great grace was upon them all?
The resurrection from the dead in the name of Jesus Christ the only Begotten Son of God answers both those questions.
It is still a good news message worthy of our telling it for the praise of the glory of His grace alone and not in order that He might fulfill His promise that He must bring those who are not of this flock also.
He came to save His people from their sins and that he does, regardless of how, when, or where we obediently submit to the command to preach the gospel, not one of His shall go down to the grave without possessing the same blessed hope of their redeemer living and that they shall stand and see him with their own eyes and not the eyes of another.
Bro. Dallas Eaton
Frogman, I found the www.bruceolson.com website and read much of the story. It would be good to get Olson's book and read his personal story. It looks like a wonderful missionary narration. I recommend anyone on the BB to check out this website and learn the story of a great missionary.
However, on the website I notice such things as: the Motilones murdered any white man who came near (they tried to kill Bruce), and had a reputation as cannibals. The author of the article I read (who visited Bruce on the field) wrote, "Besides having the gift of truly enjoying their way of life, the Motilone are also a religious people, concerned with pleasing God. Their mythology recounts how the knowledge of the trail that led them to God has been lost because of evil antecedents. Even before Bruce arrived, they knew they had broken communication with their Creator. And they knew they needed a special revelation to show them the way to the horizon where their God was to be found." This does not sound like a redeemed people to me.
Unfortunately, I've not been able to find on the website anything about what you say they believed. This does not sound like the exception to the rule. The Motilone were not redeemed people until they heard the revelation of God in Jesus Christ through Bruce Olson.
There are many similar cases of the truth being preserved to a degree in a culture. I have mentioned in this thread the things preserved in the Chinese characters. There is also the famous story portrayed in the "Peace Child" movie. However, these are only helps for people to seek the Lord--they cannot bring salvation. That can only come through God's revelation in Christ Jesus.
Dear Brother John,
I do have the book. Thanks for recommending it.
I am convinced that there was an elect people among that tribe of people who knew and believed the truth and possessed the hope long before the missionary arrived on the feild.
If you will read my post, I don't think I stated the entire tribe of people were eternally saved because of this story.
What was it you said the usefulness of this story and other 'mythological' stories are for these heathen peoples?
What is it the scripture says? Does God not have people out of every tongue and tribe and nation? If so, how did he get a people out of every tongue, tribe and nation prior to TBN and the missionary Baptists and likeminded beleivers? Was he powerless to redeem HIS People prior to a worldwide mission evangelistic television series?
Bro. Dallas
I do have the book. Thanks for recommending it.
I am convinced that there was an elect people among that tribe of people who knew and believed the truth and possessed the hope long before the missionary arrived on the feild.
If you will read my post, I don't think I stated the entire tribe of people were eternally saved because of this story.
What was it you said the usefulness of this story and other 'mythological' stories are for these heathen peoples?
What is it the scripture says? Does God not have people out of every tongue and tribe and nation? If so, how did he get a people out of every tongue, tribe and nation prior to TBN and the missionary Baptists and likeminded beleivers? Was he powerless to redeem HIS People prior to a worldwide mission evangelistic television series?
Bro. Dallas