Can you explain by selecting the verse(s) of John 1 that do not refute the freedom of choice?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is there some or is it none, no one or someone?
- Thread starter agedman
- Start date
Can you explain by selecting the verse(s) of John 1 that do not refute the freedom of choice?
None of the verses of John 1 refute freedom of choice.
Then how is not John 1 not opposed to the statement in the OP?
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. (KJV)
Jesus Himself declares the free will of man in salvation - that's good enough for me.
Jesus Himself declares the free will of man in salvation - that's good enough for me.
So you are stating that Jesus said “Thy faith hath saved the” means she saved herself?
37818
Well-Known Member
". . . ye are saved through faith . . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8.
agreed.
However, the ultimate question answer must address if it is human generated faith, or faith that is the gift of God in which people are given as express as their own.
In the case of the statement by Pastor Bod:
In Pastor Bob's post, quoting Luke 7, "Thy faith hath saved thee" it does not relate to free will of humankind unless the humankind self generated faith has the ability to save themselves. Acknowledging that the faith was a gift by God resulting in the expression of by the woman in which Christ acknowledged as "thy (God given) faith hath saved thee..."
Ultimately, it comes down to who is the author of saving faith.
Oh, now I see the problem with your question.
Take out the double negative and ask your question again. I'll do it for you and save the time.
Does John 1 clearly state that people do not have the ability to believe in Jesus? No
or
Does John 1 clearly state that people do have the ability to believe in Jesus? No
Last edited:
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
I am not saying that, and that you well know.
She did not save herself any more than the blind man healed himself in Mark 10:52, "And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way." (KJV)
Nor, the woman in Matthew 9:22, "But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour." (KJV)
Jesus was saying that her faith was the instrument of receiving her salvation, just as their faith was the instrument of receiving their healing. This same instrument of faith is available to all. It is a matter of choice.
The Bible is clear that the child of God is to "walk by faith" (II Corinthians 5:7). The Bible is also clear that "as ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him." (Colossians 2:6) (KJV)
How did we receive Christ? By faith. How are we to walk in Christ? By faith. Both are choices we make.
You have to change (or ignore) a lot of Scripture and redefine a lot of words to believe otherwise.
I am not saying that, and that you well know.
She did not save herself any more than the blind man healed himself in Mark 10:52, "And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way." (KJV)
Nor, the woman in Matthew 9:22, "But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour." (KJV)
Jesus was saying that her faith was the instrument of receiving her salvation, just as their faith was the instrument of receiving their healing. This same instrument of faith is available to all. It is a matter of choice.
The Bible is clear that the child of God is to "walk by faith" (II Corinthians 5:7). The Bible is also clear that "as ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him." (Colossians 2:6) (KJV)
How did we receive Christ? By faith. How are we to walk in Christ? By faith. Both are choices we make.
You have to change (or ignore) a lot of Scripture and redefine a lot of words to believe otherwise.
I understand the concept and your application.
However, In clinging to freedom to express and out of a fallen human will to choose righteousness, is that not establishing to seek, as the Jews did, their own righteousness?
Is such righteous "faith" innate as part of the fallen human or is it in fact a specific righteous empowering gift of God in which that person then expresses righteousness?
According to this line of your post, "This same instrument of faith is available to all. It is a matter of choice," it would seem that the fallen human has authority of their own fallen condition to attain expressions of righteousness sufficient unto salvation. Yet, Romans states that
30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written, ..."
Certainly the believer is to live and walk by faith. They are believers - they have that which God gifted.
However, according to Romans, we Gentiles "who did not pursue righteousness have attained it ...by faith..."
How is it that humans, who do not pursue righteousness yet have attained righteousness, were not gifted righteousness which in turn allowed for the expression of righteousness? Does it not all come as one package?
Can righteousness originate in the frailty of human expression of belief?
Can such as can attain righteousness come by mere fallen intellect, or the sin-filled core central character value, or in some other fallen human related aspect?
Is there any aspect of the natural unsaved human that was not marred by sin and "fallen short of the Glory of God" in order that righteous expression may attain salvation?
If the faith is the gift of God as Ephesians states, is measured / distributed to believers as Romans states, then the expression of "thy faith" in the examples you have given was not human generated faith, but that faith which was purposely given by God empowering that person to express that righteousness - salvation. (for with the heart one believes, the mouth confesses the salvation)
Therefore, is it not true that there is "none, not some, no-one not someone?"
Perhaps were we are more in disagreement is in the flow chart rather than the terms used in the flow chart.
Here is the flow from Romans:
Romans states: "14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?
Then it is true that the gift of faith, "17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."
In essence, I see that faith to express is present as a gift of God after hearing the word of Christ. Not something that can be innate in every human as you would present. For some have not ears to hear!
This presentation is consistent with Romans 10:
5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Then it follows that the fallen humankind of their own "freedom" do not have the empowerment to express such righteousness based on self - generated faith.
Rather, the Scriptures place the sequence as the favor of God distributing to a specific persons (Romans) the gift of faith (Ephesians) as they hear the Word (Christ). Having been given such faith, that person undergoes a core value of the heart change (Romans) that they believe and express believe of salvation.
That is the point of "the faith has made thee whole." It is expressing that faith God gave.
It is consistent with Hebrews 12:
"...looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."
Perhaps you can suggest how freedom to choose, freedom of the will, freedom of expression can attain that which according to the Scriptures I offered can also attain salvation?
Last edited:
37818
Well-Known Member
Faith is because of a truth. Or should be. The gift of faith should not be confused with faith as a result of truth (Romans 10:17-18; John 17:17),
37818
Well-Known Member
Confession is a work, as is the rite of immersion (Mark 16:16) or praying for salvation (Romans 10:13-14).
Pastor_Bob,
Scripture does not present it as determining the ...MEANS...God has a perfect plan to redeem the elect sheep in Union with the seed.
There is no potential means conditioned upon man or his will ,which would be counter-scriptural.
[He choose to do so through the sacrifice of His own dear Son.]
Not just a sacrifice but a Covenant death on behalf of the foreknown sheep
[He has set the conditions of that salvation as our repentance (from sin) toward God and faith (in that sacrifice) toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).]
What you describe here are not conditions that acquire salvation, but the results of the work of the Spirit of God.
Where we differ is that I believe that He extends this invitation to all mankind freely and has not predetermined man's eternal destiny independent of man's free will.
The gospel goes out to all who hear the word preached.
However, God has indeed predestined all of the elect to be justified , sanctified, and fully glorified and conformed to the Image of the Son.
[He has, however, predetermined man's eternal destiny based upon man's free will. ]
Clearly unbiblical. In an attempt to deny what is clearly taught, you go into such error.Jn1:13
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[He has predetermined that all who accept the invitation to receive Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour will be saved (John 1:12).]
It does not teach that at all, that's why the previously mentioned verse 13 explains that what you said is not possible.
[He has predetermined that all who reject His merciful and gracious offer of salvation will not be saved (John 3:18).]
No, sorry...all men are born in sinful rebellion and children of wrath unless God saves them.
Scripture does not present it as determining the ...MEANS...God has a perfect plan to redeem the elect sheep in Union with the seed.
There is no potential means conditioned upon man or his will ,which would be counter-scriptural.
[He choose to do so through the sacrifice of His own dear Son.]
Not just a sacrifice but a Covenant death on behalf of the foreknown sheep
[He has set the conditions of that salvation as our repentance (from sin) toward God and faith (in that sacrifice) toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).]
What you describe here are not conditions that acquire salvation, but the results of the work of the Spirit of God.
Where we differ is that I believe that He extends this invitation to all mankind freely and has not predetermined man's eternal destiny independent of man's free will.
The gospel goes out to all who hear the word preached.
However, God has indeed predestined all of the elect to be justified , sanctified, and fully glorified and conformed to the Image of the Son.
[He has, however, predetermined man's eternal destiny based upon man's free will. ]
Clearly unbiblical. In an attempt to deny what is clearly taught, you go into such error.Jn1:13
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[He has predetermined that all who accept the invitation to receive Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour will be saved (John 1:12).]
It does not teach that at all, that's why the previously mentioned verse 13 explains that what you said is not possible.
[He has predetermined that all who reject His merciful and gracious offer of salvation will not be saved (John 3:18).]
No, sorry...all men are born in sinful rebellion and children of wrath unless God saves them.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
Not at all. Choosing to follow God's principles and precepts which result in uprightness, is clearly establishing an imputed righteousness and not at all establishing one's own.
It is not innate but it is certainly obtainable. It is nothing more than simple obedience to God's Word.
Salvation is not attained by expressions of righteousness. No amount of righteousness is sufficient. It is solely based upon grace through faith.
You're missing the point. The emphasis is not on righteousness; the emphasis is on faith. The Gentiles exercised faith in the teaching of the Apostles and it resulted in righteousness. The Jew were attempting to attain righteousness by the law without faith. The choice is clear again, one may choose faith or choose works.
Therein lies your problem...it is not "we Gentiles;" it was "those Gentiles" to whom Paul and Peter were preaching. This is not describing the human nature of all mankind; it is simply making the distinction between the Jew and Gentile of whom Paul had personal knowledge. It wasn't the two races as a whole.
What can I say other than you have badly misapplied this passage?
According to the Word of God, it can: Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (KJV)
You're still trying to turn this into a works-based salvation. No degree of righteousness is sufficient to save us apart from faith.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
I wanted to add some scripture with my statement above:
Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. (KJV)
Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. (KJV)
Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. (KJV)
Lydia was already worshipping God as a lost lady. She was seeking God. She was seeking the truth. When Paul preached the Word of God to her, God opened her heart even more and gave her more light so that she "attended" or gave heed to (believed) what Paul was saying. Consequently, she was saved that day. It wasn't any righteousness on her part that saved her, rather her faith in the gospel.
I'm going to express a variant view point of these passages. That you might both consider and refute.
That is always the effect of the teaching (preaching) of Christ. It appears foolish to some and not to others.
This is the problem with any presentation based upon persuasion. Unless the Holy Spirit works to "open the heart" (as shown in the next passage you posted) there is no actually hearing and attention paid, rather, as stated above, it all sounds as foolishness.
This is also true in the statements concerning Cornelius.
Do you consider that there is a difference between righteous and righteousness?
That is always the effect of the teaching (preaching) of Christ. It appears foolish to some and not to others.
This is the problem with any presentation based upon persuasion. Unless the Holy Spirit works to "open the heart" (as shown in the next passage you posted) there is no actually hearing and attention paid, rather, as stated above, it all sounds as foolishness.
This is also true in the statements concerning Cornelius.
Do you consider that there is a difference between righteous and righteousness?
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
I agree. Do those to whom it appears foolish make a conscious choice not to believe the teaching/preaching? Do those to whom it does not appear foolish make a conscious choice to believe the teaching/preaching? If the hearer has no choice in the matter, what is the purpose of the speaking?
You and I are in agreement here. We differ because I believe that the Holy Spirit visits every man, woman, boy, and girl and "opens their heart" to the gospel at some point. "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11 KJV). It is at that moment they choose to believe or not to believe. If they believe, God gives them more light.
Absolutely.
37818
Well-Known Member
Appeared does not mean everyone chooses to hear. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
I agree; but, it means that everyone has the opportunity to choose to hear.
Satan may have blinded the eyes of the lost, but "greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world."
John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. (KJV)
Jesus did not declare the free will of man anywhere.
Repentance and faith are gifts of God given at regeneration.
Once given we do exercise them,and thank God for so great a salvation.