Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
You have to ignore or redefine the multiplicity of passages that clearly teach otherwise.
There is no basis for this concept in Scripture except to those who practice eisegesis instead of exegesis.
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Is there some or is it none, no one or someone?
- Thread starter agedman
- Start date
You have to ignore or redefine the multiplicity of passages that clearly teach otherwise.
Pastor_Bob,
Hello Pastor Bob, Thank you for making a biblical case as you articulate your views. We are not seeing it the same way however so allow me to respond.
if she was it was because God was drawing her.
Then you added this in the other post;
↑Icon said;
Jesus did not declare the free will of man anywhere.
You have no passage that addresses mans will that say it is free...not one, so to say they 'CLEARLY " TEACH OTHERWISE IS A STRETCH
THEN THIS;
Repentance and faith are gifts of God given at regeneration.
Once given we do exercise them,and thank God for so great a salvation. TO WHICH YOU POSTED;
Hello Pastor Bob, Thank you for making a biblical case as you articulate your views. We are not seeing it the same way however so allow me to respond.
The text does not say she was lost...lost people do not worship the true God.psalm115. She might have been a proselyte it does not say.
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if she was it was because God was drawing her.
That is what the biblical text says
that is what you added to the text.
Then you added this in the other post;
↑Icon said;
Jesus did not declare the free will of man anywhere.
You have no passage that addresses mans will that say it is free...not one, so to say they 'CLEARLY " TEACH OTHERWISE IS A STRETCH
THEN THIS;
Repentance and faith are gifts of God given at regeneration.
Once given we do exercise them,and thank God for so great a salvation. TO WHICH YOU POSTED;
There is no basis for this concept in Scripture except to those who practice eisegesis instead of exegesis.[/QUOTIn post 53 i offered why and how we differ a bit , as time permits I would like you to respond to those responses.
Would a few direct quotes from scripture be eisegis to your understand? I am thinking of these passages;
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
God granted repentance unto life ...how is this eisegesis?
or phil1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
The word for given, is graced as a gift.
eph2*-10
I asked a few more things in post 53...and I would like you to address the new thread on John 1;12,13 as to not derail this thread. I like you pastor Bob, although In these things I am coming at you a bit to clarify what is being posted
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
God bless you, my friend. Civil debate is what keeps me coming back. This is a pleasant distraction from my work. When it ceases to be pleasant, I will ride off into the cyber sunset.
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I believe the text clearly states that she was down at the riverside worshipping God (Luke's words, not mine) BEFORE Paul gave her the gospel and she believed and was saved.
Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. (KJV)
No argument here at all. I believe God was indeed drawing her, as He does all men.
This is not adding to the text, Brother; this is making commentary on the text. I base that commentary on I Corinthians 3:6, "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase" (KJV).
When an individual responds to the Gospel message via the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, God will often send another messenger to that individual to reinforce the message or to add to the message. I believe that is what is going on in Lydia's life. She knew enough about God to want to know more about God. God "opened her heart" because she, in some way, had received the seed somewhere. We don't know who planted, but Paul watered and God gave the increase.
I guess I missed the point you were trying to make.
I have dozens. You simply do not see them as such.
God grants that to everyone. This passage is simply Peter explaining his vision to the brethren in Jerusalem. The purpose was very clear - God has extended salvation to the Gentiles - ALL Gentiles. It is in no way saying that repentance is a gift of God given at regeneration.
Paul is simply saying that salvation is not all there is to the Christian life. There will be suffering involved as well. Remember, Paul is writing this from prison.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
A comment if I may, sir:
Paul is stating that there are two things that have been given to the believer...
To believe on Him.
and
To suffer for His sake.
" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 )
He is stating that both believing on him, and suffering for His sake, have been given to them in the behalf of Christ.
Given...as in, "a gift".
Pastor_Bob,
Hello Pastor Bob and thanks again for your willingness to stand up and offer a reason for the hope that is in you.
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I am glad to see we are in complete agreement on this part of your response. Glad because this kind of response is offered most times by a person who is busy witnessing to lost persons.
Many sit back in their lazy boy and never go into a public place seeking gospel opportunities. That this verse is in the forefront of your mind tells me that not only do you personally do this, but I am sure you instruct those members in your assembly that we are all called to those good works that God has ordained for us to walk in.
We still have areas where we are at odd's, but this post tells me that you are not to be treated as a hostile enemy, but as a brother.
Hello Pastor Bob and thanks again for your willingness to stand up and offer a reason for the hope that is in you.
I believe there is value in biblical interaction.I prefer face to face interaction with unsaved persons, but it is good to fellowship with like-minded brethren. That might sound odd as we are in the process of hashing out where are some places where we disagree. I do not think it is strange however because overall we will be found agreeing more than we disagree.as we are indeed like-minded in our concern to reach lost persons with the gospel.
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I am glad to see we are in complete agreement on this part of your response. Glad because this kind of response is offered most times by a person who is busy witnessing to lost persons.
Many sit back in their lazy boy and never go into a public place seeking gospel opportunities. That this verse is in the forefront of your mind tells me that not only do you personally do this, but I am sure you instruct those members in your assembly that we are all called to those good works that God has ordained for us to walk in.
We still have areas where we are at odd's, but this post tells me that you are not to be treated as a hostile enemy, but as a brother.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
A comment if I may, sir:
Paul is stating that there are two things that have been given to the believer...
To believe on Him.
and
To suffer for His sake.
" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 )
He is stating that both believing on him, and suffering for His sake, have been given to them in the behalf of Christ.
Given...as in, "a gift".
I have no argument with you here, my friend. I believe that God has graciously bestowed faith on us; but, what is the vehicle of that gracious bestowing? "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17 KJV).
I believe that this gracious bestowing of faith is a gift offered to all, not just to a predetermined group of people, unless that predetermination is as I stated earlier in this thread.
Faith in Christ is the means of salvation; but suffering is the visible evidence of salvation.
II Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. (KJV)
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
My Brother, if you are ever in the Little Rock area, it would be my delight to sit across the table from you and enjoy a cup of coffee and talk about the goodness of the Lord. Please do me the honor of letting me know if you're ever in my part of the country.
I do get out that way from time to time. I will take a rain check on that coffee.
All men are drawn Jn.12:32 but all do not respond. No where in scripture does it ever say men cannot reject Jesus Christ. The Jews already belonged to Jesus and some still rejected Him.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Even the priest rejected HIM
Is it correct to assume that this section of Scripture must in some manner be modified or rejected that there can be free will choice which allows the nonbeliever to choose righteousness?
No it does not. Jn 1 is about receiving Christ and the ability to reject Him.
When we receive Him as Savior we are saved by His will. not ours, We do not save our selves. How ever we do have to come to Him and we can do that when we are drawn. No one just comes to Christ on there own. If we come to Him we are drawn.
Freedom of Choice is presented in Jn. 1 John told two of his disciples who Christ was and they willingly followed after Christ. They were not saved yet because Jesus' blood had not been shed.
MB
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Freedom of choice is not the ability to choose salvation in John 1.
Rather, it is whether one chooses to turn from the light or to remain in the light. For light is given to all, but the Scriptures state that most refuse the light embracing (preferring) darkness for their deeds are evil.
One may certainly repent and choose to strive by living in the light. This is as those who “walked in the light” while it remained in physical form. Many are the SELF righteous.
Of those who are in the light, according to John 1, God selects and gives the authority, the empowerment, that necessary to be His.
Being, abiding, walking ... ,”in the light” is not salvation, rather it is living what may be righteous, however that is not having righteousness.
Believers’ and unbelivers’ may certainly both walk in the light to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The light lights the whole world, but salvation is given to the select few.
Perhaps an illustration concerning “drawn.”
I am not a fisherman of fish, but of men.
Having friends who are skilled fishermen, there are tools they use. One of those is the hook and another is the bait.
The bait “lures” (entices) draws the attention of the fish.
“I will draw all men to me” is not the hook, but the enticement.
Christ presents the enticement to all men. He is the light of the world. Critters are drawn to the light but such is but the enticement.
Please, do not carry this illustration further. It is not meant to be taken fur5her.
A good friend is a hunter.
All year long he pours corn into a mechanical feeder to entice the deer.
The feeder is not the hunter, the corn is not the hunter.
When he does go out to hunt, he selects from those enticed, not from those who ignore or turn away.
Again, do not carry the illustration further.
These are offered to bring discernment that “draw” does not mean “draw” to an offer of salvation, but an enticement to walk in the light.
Remember John the Baptist drew great audience and had great influence. But the drawing was not the offer of salvation, but pointing to the need of salvation.
I am not a fisherman of fish, but of men.
Having friends who are skilled fishermen, there are tools they use. One of those is the hook and another is the bait.
The bait “lures” (entices) draws the attention of the fish.
“I will draw all men to me” is not the hook, but the enticement.
Christ presents the enticement to all men. He is the light of the world. Critters are drawn to the light but such is but the enticement.
Please, do not carry this illustration further. It is not meant to be taken fur5her.
A good friend is a hunter.
All year long he pours corn into a mechanical feeder to entice the deer.
The feeder is not the hunter, the corn is not the hunter.
When he does go out to hunt, he selects from those enticed, not from those who ignore or turn away.
Again, do not carry the illustration further.
These are offered to bring discernment that “draw” does not mean “draw” to an offer of salvation, but an enticement to walk in the light.
Remember John the Baptist drew great audience and had great influence. But the drawing was not the offer of salvation, but pointing to the need of salvation.
This is true but not all. The light given to all men lights the path to Christ which is why the one who rejects the light is in fact rejecting Christ. Those who stay in the light can see to find Christ. We receive
There are a lot of self righteous people in the world Physically and none who are righteous with out the covering of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. I myself know I am in no way righteous I wear the righteousness of Christ. I am a saved sinner who still sins even though I'm saved yet all my sins are forgiven because of His blood. I know this sounds impossible but it's true.
I have to disagree. I believe the whole world was God's choice even though the whole world will not be saved. When any man hears the gospel they are drawn. Some come to Him and some reject Him. I've seen the ones who reject Him they get nervous or just plain angry.
I use to take long walks in the morning down by the river. One day I met a man who seemed friendly so I struck up a conversation with him. I asked if he knew where was going to go when he died. He said hell if he didn't change. So I began to tell him how he could escape his predicament. As soon as I mentioned Jesus he said stop right there. I don't want to hear it so, I stopped. He was visibly very upset. I believe the Lord was urging me to tell him about Jesus Christ
Everyone slips now and then. As I said before I wear the righteousness of Christ as a covering of my sins. I've never known anyone who is righteous of them selves alone.
Salvation is freely Given to everyone who believes.because the whole world has been chosen to receive it, but most reject it
MB
at 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Some such as myself have to hear the word many times before they accept it. I rejected it. I was raised in a Christian home. I was told the gospel everyday. Sadly I hated it at first. I was in my teens when I came to Christ. Many people like myself have to hear the gospel many times before they respond. When I did the gospel began to change my life and I'm still a work in progress.. I thank God He can take such a lump of clay that has flaws and remake it.
MB
The Holy Spirit cultivated the Ground by it hearing the Word. It was the Holy Spirit through the preacher who planted the seed. It was God who drew the dirt and all the other places where the seed fell. They all received the seed and responded. The stony ground was obviously distracted by the cares of his life and Satan came and stole the seed away. The most important thing about this passage is that it shows the work of the Holy Spirit. It shows that all men can receive the seed. The most important thing for man is that the seed put down roots quickly Men put down roots by the hearing and study of the Word of God.
This is how I know that man does have the ability to hear and understand can receive the word and it is the Word of God through the Holy Spirit that does the work. It is the word when hearing it, that convinces us of Christ Once convinced we will have faith and God's grace to save us.
This shows we can allow our selves to be distracted and avoid Salvation. We all know that sin can distract us it even enters our thoughts while in prayer. Sin is always with us because we still have the sin nature. We all have split personalities. We are meant to over come. With God's help all things becomes possible
MB
Perhaps you missed the significance of what is harvested?
The stones could receive nothing, and the seed (Word) lay on top to be collected. There was no harvest, no choice.
The shallow dirt had no life in itself, but the seed (as the simple fourth grade sandwich bag and tablespoon of water demonstrates) has life in itself. It sprouts but as above, no harvest, no choice.
The good earth was prepared for the seed and, as a result, the seed could flourish to harvest. It is not given in the parable that the dirt made any determination, but what grew in the dirt was harvested.
Friend, the dirt was not harvested.
The Scriptures state that believers are a new creation. That the seed implanted produces new creation by Christ that is harvested.
The dirt remains the dirt and the dirt is not harvested.
The seed (Word) by work of the Holy Spirit implanted into the prepared (by work of the Holy Spirit) bears the fruit that remains.
When I ask, “who is in charge of the dirt?” I hoped that you would understand that the parable teaches that only what is implanted and that matures is what is harvested.
The dirt remains the dirt.
Brother, explaining is not accomplished by pitting scripture against scripture. Neither are your explanations placed in parenthesis correct but totally and completely false.
For exaqmple, you consistently explaine the word "beleiveth" as preconsideration to beleive rather than what it means = the act of beleiving. The same is equally true with your other parenthetical explanations. Neither the English or Greek grammar justifies this abuse.
Indeed, the text on its surface completely repudiates your explanations.