Is this blasphemous enough for you?

[I Am Blessed 24]

Bill, do you think we're supposed to worship Mary since she was the mother of Jesus?

We are not to worship ANY human...

 

[Thinkingstuff]

We are not to worship ANY human...

Keeping in mind foundational truths such as the Trinity and the dual nature of Jesus Christ can we not say that we in fact do worship a human? Jesus Christ? He was totally man as well as totally Divine. But his man-ship isn't diminished thus making us culpable of the crime of worshiping a human.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I agree. I was talking about Mary, who was totally human...

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I agree. I was talking about Mary, who was totally human...

I think we can all agree worshiping Mary as though she were God is a bad thing. Sinful, really.

 

[lori4dogs]

I think we can all agree worshiping Mary as though she were God is a bad thing. Sinful, really.

I think we can all agree on that. :thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

I think we can all agree on that. :thumbsup:

But "we" don't all agree on that. The RCC does worship Mary and treat her as a God, but just won't admit it. Even the repetition or "prayer", "The Hail Mary," is a prayer of worship and veneration. It makes Mary into a god. Only God is to be worshiped. He alone demands our worship, our adoration. All else is idolatry.

 

[Salty]

So, I guess its okay to worship me -(see posts 262-3) I've been told I am not totally human!! :laugh::saint:

Salty

ps seeing this is like page 27, should be time to hang up the close sign

 

[Thinkingstuff]

But "we" don't all agree on that. The RCC does worship Mary and treat her as a God, but just won't admit it. Even the repetition or "prayer", "The Hail Mary," is a prayer of worship and veneration. It makes Mary into a god. Only God is to be worshiped. He alone demands our worship, our adoration. All else is idolatry.

Just to differ with you about that. If the RCC doesn't Admit it then did you ever consider that it doesn't do that?

Now your assertion that Catholics by reciting the Hail Mary is a form of God worship. This must be done in several steps 1) A Catholic distinguishes prayer to God (worship) from request for intersession by people in heaven (not worship). The later being no more than a request for prayer. 2)With this in mind look at the text of the Hail Mary.

Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed in the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death

3) break down the text

Hail Mary, Full of Grace

Note Catholics use a translation closer to Wycliff's Luke Chapter 1:28

And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.

This is the greeting given by the angel to Mary. Note for the second part of the recital the angel says in Luke 1:31

Lo! thou shalt conceive in [the] womb, and shalt bear a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus

Compare this to Luke 1:42 Elizabeth makes this proclimation when John jumps in her womb upon seeing Mary.

and cried with a great voice, and said, Blessed be thou among women, and blessed be the fruit of thy womb.

So far the recital is taken straight from scriptures and has a purpose of reminding the catholic of those very circumstances mentioned in the Gospel of Luke. The next passage

Holy Mary

. Well if you take the consept of Holy as it is meant - ie "to be set apart" so she was for the specific purpose of giving birth to the incarnation. Next lets look at the next passage

Mother of God

. Another title disposed on Mary. But does this title make her to be God? Not at all it is to remind the reciter of the fulness of Christ divinity as well as his humanity. Thus it goes back to the term Theotokos. Which translated means "mother of God" Not that she was before God and created him but that in the incarnation Mary gave birth to Jesus' fullness. or

Theotokos (Greek: Θεοτόκος, translit. Theotókos) is the Greek title of Mary...English translations include God-bearer and the one who gives birth to God. Less literal translations include Mother of God...The Council of Ephesus decreed in 431 that Mary is Theotokos because her son Jesus is one person who is both God and man, divine and human

So even in this passage Mary is not claimed to be God nor worshiped as God. The next passage

Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death

is quite clearly a petition for prayer not to dispose of some Deific power from herself.
So the question is does this recitation make Mary a God? It does not seem that way.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Just to differ with you about that. If the RCC doesn't Admit it then did you ever consider that it doesn't do that?

Oh, but it does do that. I come from a catholic family. I was raised in the RCC and attended a catholic grade school. I was married by a priest. I had my first two children baptized catholic as soon as they were born. I was a catholic until I was almost 30. I know what they teach.

I can hardly believe that I wasted years praying to a dead person who could not hear me. :tear:

 

[RAdam]

Praying to Mary is just as wrong as praying to any other entity other than God. There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. We are to pray to God, and only to God. We are to pray to God through Jesus Christ, and only through Jesus Christ. Praying to any other entity or through any other entity is wrong. I don't care what way you slice it, the RCC is wrong for praying to Mary and they need to stop.

 

[DHK]

If the Hindu prays to the god of Ganesh (the elephant god) and denies that it is idolatry, for he says, he is praying to the God that the statue represents, then is it idolatry? Can he change the terms of idolatry, redefine it, and tell us it is not idolatry because he has defined it on his terms and not the Bible's terms?

This is what the RCC has done. I define idolatry on the Bible's terms, not on the RCC's terms. They practice idolatry according to the clear cut statements given in the Ten Commandments.

The Bible is quite clear on these matters.

 

[BobRyan]

I didn’t notice anything blasphemous in either of the links you posted. The first one appears to be the sanctuary in a Catholic church with the altar in the foreground. In the background is the tabernacle, made to resemble the ark of the covenant. Behind the tabernacle stands an image of the Virgin Mary with her hands outstretched as she is portrayed in the majority of her images. The portrayal of her immaculate heart is also fairly common. The most unusual aspect of this portrayal is that Mary is shown in her red tunic, without her traditional blue outer garment. Most depictions of Mary will show her dressed in blue, with only a small portion of the red tunic visible beneath it. Perhaps they chose to put Mary there to identify her with the ark of the covenant, a concept that is solidly grounded in scripture.

1. In the OT God commanded that the ark of the Covenant with the golden angels be built. Once this was constructed and placed in the Most Holy Place of the sanctuary - the glory of God Himself appeared above the Mercy seat - in the place in that picture being occupied by Mary.

Mary is placed in the position of God Almighty in that "MothersPlea" setting.

2. There is NO reference in all of scripture justifying the act of replacing God with Mary.

3. But what is more - there is no reference in all of scripture of Mary sitting on the Ark of the Covenant. Some Catholics have imagined a story where Christ is the Law of God (the Word of God) and so the Law of God inside the Ark represents Christ. They then argue that Mary as the Mother of Christ who once had the unborn infant inside her - is a kind of "Ark".

But the picture in question does not present Mary as the Ark - but rather as God above the Ark.

Don't know how they expect to justify that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

If the Hindu prays to the god of Ganesh (the elephant god) and denies that it is idolatry, for he says, he is praying to the God that the statue represents, then is it idolatry? Can he change the terms of idolatry, redefine it, and tell us it is not idolatry because he has defined it on his terms and not the Bible's terms?

This is what the RCC has done. I define idolatry on the Bible's terms, not on the RCC's terms. They practice idolatry according to the clear cut statements given in the Ten Commandments.

The Bible is quite clear on these matters.

In the Catholic book "the Faith Explained" the Catholic church is said to be guilty of "idolatry" if in fact their claims about the bread being turned into God during the mass are false - since they admit this would be a case of worshipping bread as God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Zenas]

1. In the OT God commanded that the ark of the Covenant with the golden angels be built. Once this was constructed and placed in the Most Holy Place of the sanctuary - the glory of God Himself appeared above the Mercy seat - in the place in that picture being occupied by Mary.

Mary is placed in the position of God Almighty in that "MothersPlea" setting.

2. There is NO reference in all of scripture justifying the act of replacing God with Mary.

3. But what is more - there is no reference in all of scripture of Mary sitting on the Ark of the Covenant. Some Catholics have imagined a story where Christ is the Law of God (the Word of God) and so the Law of God inside the Ark represents Christ. They then argue that Mary as the Mother of Christ who once had the unborn infant inside her - is a kind of "Ark".

But the picture in question does not present Mary as the Ark - but rather as God above the Ark.

Don't know how they expect to justify that.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, you and others have stated that Mary appears to be sitting on the Mercy Seat. I don't see how you get that out of the picture. Mary is standing several feet behind the replica of the ark--not above it, not on it but behind it. If she were sitting on the mercy seat, you could see her feet in front of it. You can't see her feet in this picture.

As for the identification of Mary with the ark of the covenant, I have explained ad nauseam the various scripture passages that show this, especially how Luke borrowed from Samuel in identifyig Mary with the ark of the covenant. I have shown non-Marian passages where Luke also borrowed the language from Samuel, showing it is not mere coincidence and the work of a vivid imagination. I even have more if you would like to see them. That Luke did this is undeniable.

 

[targus]

Bob, you and others have stated that Mary appears to be sitting on the Mercy Seat.

Bob did more than that... he said "But the picture in question does not present Mary as the Ark - but rather as God above the Ark."

No Catholic has said that it represents any such thing.

But Bob says it because as an SDA cult member he is required to be rabidly anti-Catholic - even if it means bearing false witness - which SDA are most happy to do when it comes to Catholics.

And this one didn't have to even come from the tired old SDA cut and paste library.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Oh, but it does do that. I come from a catholic family. I was raised in the RCC and attended a catholic grade school. I was married by a priest. I had my first two children baptized catholic as soon as they were born. I was a catholic until I was almost 30. I know what they teach.

I can hardly believe that I wasted years praying to a dead person who could not hear me. :tear:

Question: (as a Catholic might ask) Is Mary really dead? Is she more dead than Moses who spoke with Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration? Or is she alive in Christ and received in her reward even as Paul says he is assured of his reward?

Oh and what liturature indicates that Mary is God? Certainly, None of the encylical or writings I've read have said Mary is God? I'm curious since you seem very assured they taught you Mary was God. I've been to Mass many times myself as I was raised Catholic and nowhere in the liturgy do I find spoken of that Mary is God. So, what did I miss?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Praying to Mary is just as wrong as praying to any other entity other than God. There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. We are to pray to God, and only to God. We are to pray to God through Jesus Christ, and only through Jesus Christ. Praying to any other entity or through any other entity is wrong. I don't care what way you slice it, the RCC is wrong for praying to Mary and they need to stop.

As I understand the word pray it can be used in several context. 1) to communicate with just about anyone. IE pray tell. It in this fashion means to beseach. 2) Pray to God or some deity. And I've recently discovered that Catholics use prayers to do several things. 1) communicate with the members of the body of christ 2) to direct thoughts and intentions thus a quote of a psalm 3) to meditate upon spiritual truths 4) to communicate with God. Each has a different emphasis. Each is a different type of thing. But under one name like Love. We love hamburgers we also love God we don't confuse hamburgers with God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If the Hindu prays to the god of Ganesh (the elephant god) and denies that it is idolatry, for he says, he is praying to the God that the statue represents, then is it idolatry? Can he change the terms of idolatry, redefine it, and tell us it is not idolatry because he has defined it on his terms and not the Bible's terms?

This is what the RCC has done. I define idolatry on the Bible's terms, not on the RCC's terms. They practice idolatry according to the clear cut statements given in the Ten Commandments.

The Bible is quite clear on these matters.

Not a good example for a couple of reasons. Hindus belief Ganesh is a god. Ganesh is a god that is other than God. The term remains. We aren't talking about statues but persons and prayer.
Catholics refute the claim Mary is God and say she is a created being thus the person of Mary is not considered a god apart from God as the hindu believes about Ganesh. So your analogy falls short.
Bible is clear you should not give worship due to God to any other thing. But not clear on 1) statues - God commands Moses to build the likeness of Seraphim on the top of the ark of the covenant thus if the image thing is a problem God breaks his own law. Solomon also builds seraphim statues in the Temple Solomon should have been condemned for such a thing but he is praised. 2) speaking with those in Christ after they died. Ie Moses speaking with Jesus before he died in the view of his disciples and other questions regarding this.

 

[Grace&Truth]

What Is The Sanctuary of The Divine Mercy?
Here in the heart of Chicago, as in innumerable places throughout the world, heaven is reaching out to humanity in a gesture of mercy to kindle within the soul a desire for God. The Holy Mother of God -- the tabernacle that so long ago concealed the Holy of Holies -- continues her apostolic mission to make Jesus known, loved, and served. She gently and tenderly, gracefully and mercifully, reminds a wayward, wandering, and wondering people that they, too, are known, loved, and served by God.

Our Lady's request for a Sanctuary of The Divine Mercy is a mother's plea to her children to seek refuge in God. To this end, she prepares holy ground where sacred silence gives way to the sound of God's voice. She will not permit the cacophony of the world to interrupt or distort the voice of the living God. She will provide the means to draw the pilgrims to the Sanctuary of The Divine Mercy and into the silence of the adoration chapel where Jesus will give to drink from the fountain of mercy.

The Sanctuary of The Divine Mercy will be an encounter with the Living God in the silence of sacred space. There, away from the noise of the world, the soul will "contemplate the face of Christ in the school of Mary."

Is this not the Holy Spirits ministry? There is much that is wrong with this picture of Mary....she is in God's place over the Ark of the covenant and Mercy Seat. Also notice the Monstrance (sp)...does this not show her above Jesus....Where is God the Father dipicted in this picture? Anyone with a basic understanding of the Scriptures can see this picture of Mary is wrong, she has replaced the God the Father, taken the Ministry of God the Holy Spirit, and has over shadowed God the Son.

 

[RAdam]

As I understand the word pray it can be used in several context. 1) to communicate with just about anyone. IE pray tell. It in this fashion means to beseach. 2) Pray to God or some deity. And I've recently discovered that Catholics use prayers to do several things. 1) communicate with the members of the body of christ 2) to direct thoughts and intentions thus a quote of a psalm 3) to meditate upon spiritual truths 4) to communicate with God. Each has a different emphasis. Each is a different type of thing. But under one name like Love. We love hamburgers we also love God we don't confuse hamburgers with God.

They pray to Mary in line manner as they pray to God. They are asking for intervention.

Your attempt to play with words falls short. They are praying to another entity than God, and that is wrong. You can defend that practice if you want, you can try to claim they aren't doing what they are clearly doing, but you are only wearing yourself out and wasting time. To anyone who looks they are doing things they shouldn't be doing. Praying to anyone other than God is just plain wrong.