Is This really Lordship Salvation view then?

[David Lamb]

did I say he was not lord?


When a rescuer comes to pull you from a burning building. do you know who that rescuer is. or do you trust that he can save you and allow him to do his job?

True, you don't know who the rescuer is who saves you from a burning building. However, the bible says that to be saved in the biblical sense, one must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You cannot believe on Him if you don't know Who He is.

Again, I can not agree. the bible says the things of God are foolishness..

Yes, to the natural man. When we are saved it is by God's grace, His working, His granting of spiritual life.

Until a person is saved, about all he can understand is the basics.

And the basics includes Who Jesus is.

As the man who begged Jesus to save his daughter said when Jesus asked him if he believed. I believe help me with my unbelief..

True, I agree with that. But in relation to the current topic, this man knew Jesus as Lord:

“Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”” (Mr 9:24 NKJV)

He has to become my savior before he can become my lord..

He is both Saviour and Lord:

““For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” (Lu 2:11 NKJV)

“For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,” (Php 3:20 NKJV)

“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,” (1Ti 1:1 NKJV)

“To Titus, a true son in [our] common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.” (Tit 1:4 NKJV)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The great danger of Free Grace [position is can end up with many clinging their hope upon a one time altar call. at a crusade, at the church pews, and yet never really confirmed were really saved or just emotionalism. while extreme lordship gets us to never trust have been really saved, as keep looking at our behavior and obedience levels.

1. Grace is free to the receiver. so the misnomer "free grace" is kind of contradictory in itself. it makes it appear as if grace is not free to the receiver and the receiver must pay some price. which would make it legalism.
2. It is not our responsibility to know if a person who calls out to God has truly repented or not. Its our job to make sure they know the truth. so they can make a decision. based on the truth. and their reaction to it
3. Sadly. many people out of fear may say some sinners prayer. and think they are saved. Again, it is not for us to judge. You will know them by their fruits. just because someone claims to have faith. does not mean they repented.
4. other people may take the walk and say a prayer. but they to do not really have faith. they feel that yes. God brought me in, But i must keep myself by some works.. They are just as lost as those in point 3. which I call the licentious part.

Grace is free. teaching grace is free to the receiver. but paid in full by the savior is not dangerous or bad. It is teaching the truth.

Lets not fall for the approach that we should not teach salvation is solely by grace through faith. not of works.. because someone may do as many did in paus day and misinterpret it to turn the grace of God to licentiousness. for that will lead to legalism and self righteousness. which is just as evil

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And that is why we need good biblical discipleship for new believers. There are many false teachers just waiting to lead the new believer astray with fine sounding words.

yes.. Sadly some bring a person to say a prayer. but never follow up..

many in churches today are numbers based. how many can I get to come up and say a prayer. Not how many future leaders and disciplers and workers can I Help God grow

 

[Eternally Grateful]

True, you don't know who the rescuer is who saves you from a burning building. However, the bible says that to be saved in the biblical sense, one must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You cannot believe on Him if you don't know Who He is.

Yes. he is lord of your salvation.

Yes, to the natural man. When we are saved it is by God's grace, His working, His granting of spiritual life.

And the basics includes Who Jesus is.

lol. No one who comes to christ understands exactly who Jesus us.

it takes a lifetime and we still do not know him as he is.. that will nto happen until we see him face to face

True, I agree with that. But in relation to the current topic, this man knew Jesus as Lord:

“Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”” (Mr 9:24 NKJV)

He is both Saviour and Lord:

Did he understand him as Lord over all. Or was he calling him Lord as he would any person of power?

““For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” (Lu 2:11 NKJV)

“For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,” (Php 3:20 NKJV)

“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,” (1Ti 1:1 NKJV)

“To Titus, a true son in [our] common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.” (Tit 1:4 NKJV)

Sorry. we will have to agree to disagree.

Lordship salvation to me and the way I have seen it preached is a flawed gospel.

 

[JesusFan]

yes.. Sadly some bring a person to say a prayer. but never follow up..

many in churches today are numbers based. how many can I get to come up and say a prayer. Not how many future leaders and disciplers and workers can I Help God grow

The NT example to us in Acts would be once saved get them right into a discipleship situation

 

[JesusFan]

Yes. he is lord of your salvation.

lol. No one who comes to christ understands exactly who Jesus us.

it takes a lifetime and we still do not know him as he is.. that will nto happen until we see him face to face

Did he understand him as Lord over all. Or was he calling him Lord as he would any person of power?

Sorry. we will have to agree to disagree.

Lordship salvation to me and the way I have seen it preached is a flawed gospel.

proper "lordship salvation" as per the Bible as I understand it would include
a profession of faith is Jesus as Lord and savior, but such a profession would be evidenced by some fruit, such as a changed mindset regarding sin, God, church bible etc, and some type of good works unto others , so not just "faith alone" talk after having been really saved , but a life to some degree reflecting a change

as the free Grace view to my understanding does not lead to a maturity of growth, more like a life insurance policy against Hell fire

 

[Eternally Grateful]

proper "lordship salvation" as per the Bible as I understand it would include
a profession of faith is Jesus as Lord and savior, but such a profession would be evidenced by some fruit, such as a changed mindset regarding sin, God, church bible etc, and some type of good works unto others , so not just "faith alone" talk after having been really saved , but a life to some degree reflecting a change

as the free Grace view to my understanding does not lead to a maturity of growth, more like a life insurance policy against Hell fire

the gospel is this

1. I have sinned and fallen short
2. I can not save myself.
3. The wage of my sin, is spiritual death or separation from God. and if I do not have this major issue resolved. I will remain spiritually dead for all eternity
4. That God who is rich in hi mercy and grace. left his heavenly abode. Came to earth. Fulfilled the law and because of the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
5. Become like the tax collector. or as Jesus said. become poor in spirit (literally bankrupt)
6. Cry out For Gods mercy and forgiveness by calling on him to apply his grace gift to you.

that's the gospel. I do not need to know everythign about Jesus to know this. Just have faith that what God promised he can deliver

 

[Eternally Grateful]

proper "lordship salvation" as per the Bible as I understand it would include
a profession of faith is Jesus as Lord and savior, but such a profession would be evidenced by some fruit, such as a changed mindset regarding sin, God, church bible etc, and some type of good works unto others , so not just "faith alone" talk after having been really saved , but a life to some degree reflecting a change

as the free Grace view to my understanding does not lead to a maturity of growth, more like a life insurance policy against Hell fire

the definition you gave would lead to some legalistic mindset.. God does not need proof to know if our faith is real or not. He just wants us to get saved by receiving him (but as many as have received him)

it is God who changes us (eph 2: 10) for Good works..

this is a better lordship defenition however than most I hear. you have to clean your life up first. then MAYBE God will save you

or another one. You have to promise you will stop your sin or stop doing these things. and live for him.

 

[JesusFan]

the definition you gave would lead to some legalistic mindset.. God does not need proof to know if our faith is real or not. He just wants us to get saved by receiving him (but as many as have received him)

it is God who changes us (eph 2: 10) for Good works..

this is a better lordship defenition however than most I hear. you have to clean your life up first. then MAYBE God will save you

or another one. You have to promise you will stop your sin or stop doing these things. and live for him.

Just as I am is how God saves us, as we can offer to Him nothings that merits salvation, and while we must repent of our sinning, does not mean reach a sinless perfection state as extreme Lordship seems to want us to be getting to

 

[JesusFan]

the gospel is this

1. I have sinned and fallen short
2. I can not save myself.
3. The wage of my sin, is spiritual death or separation from God. and if I do not have this major issue resolved. I will remain spiritually dead for all eternity
4. That God who is rich in hi mercy and grace. left his heavenly abode. Came to earth. Fulfilled the law and because of the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
5. Become like the tax collector. or as Jesus said. become poor in spirit (literally bankrupt)
6. Cry out For Gods mercy and forgiveness by calling on him to apply his grace gift to you.

that's the gospel. I do not need to know everythign about Jesus to know this. Just have faith that what God promised he can deliver

Agreed, yet think better way to view this would be proper Free Grace understanding deals with being justified, while proper Lordship deals with now saved and now getting sanctified

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Agreed, yet think better way to view this would be proper Free Grace understanding deals with being justified, while proper Lordship deals with now saved and now getting sanctified

Sanctification is after we are saved

lets get people saved first. Then Worry about what happens after.. a person not yet saved can not understand sanctification or what it even means

 

[JesusFan]

Sanctification is after we are saved

lets get people saved first. Then Worry about what happens after.. a person not yet saved can not understand sanctification or what it even means

Agreed, just think that we need to present to them a realistic view of how coming to Jesus will save them, will be giving them new lives, but also does not mean now walking on water all the time and way into heaven

 

[37818]

Jesus taught against Lordship salvation per Matthew 7:21-23, . . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
iniquity.

 

[canadyjd]

the gospel is this

1. I have sinned and fallen short
2. I can not save myself.
3. The wage of my sin, is spiritual death or separation from God. and if I do not have this major issue resolved. I will remain spiritually dead for all eternity
4. That God who is rich in hi mercy and grace. left his heavenly abode. Came to earth. Fulfilled the law and because of the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
5. Become like the tax collector. or as Jesus said. become poor in spirit (literally bankrupt)
6. Cry out For Gods mercy and forgiveness by calling on him to apply his grace gift to you.

that's the gospel. I do not need to know everythign about Jesus to know this. Just have faith that what God promised he can deliver

I think your definition of the gospel is out of focus.

Paul gave what was of “first importance” concerning the gospel in 1 Corinthians. That is…

Jesus died for our sins according to the scripture

Jesus was buried, according to the scripture

Jesus rose from the dead, according to the scriptures

Jesus was seen alive by more than 500 people that knew He died.

The focus of the Gospel is always upon the person and work of Jesus. Your definition is more focused on the person and what they do.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Jesus taught against Lordship salvation per Matthew 7:21-23, . . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
iniquity.

You are completely wrong about this passage. It confirms “lordship salvation” with the phrase “those that do the will of My Father…”

This passage illustrates “salvation” is about being in a right relationship with God (as evidenced by Jesus saying “depart from Me, I never KNEW you”)

Lordship salvation says nothing more than the biblical truth that there is an expectation of a transformed life for those who are in a right relationship with God.

I don’t declare anyone saved or unsaved. I put no conditions of “you must do…. something” to prove your salvation. I would only caution that those with no evidence of a transformed life shouldn’t have assurance of salvation. That is biblical, as Paul gave similar warnings.

Peace to you

 

[JesusFan]

I think your definition of the gospel is out of focus.

Paul gave what was of “first importance” concerning the gospel in 1 Corinthians. That is…

Jesus died for our sins according to the scripture

Jesus was buried, according to the scripture

Jesus rose from the dead, according to the scriptures

Jesus was seen alive by more than 500 people that knew He died.

The focus of the Gospel is always upon the person and work of Jesus. Your definition is more focused on the person and what they do.

Peace to you

Would that be a common view in some Free Grace churches. a focusing on what "we can do?"

 

[JesusFan]

You are completely wrong about this passage. It confirms “lordship salvation” with the phrase “those that do the will of My Father…”

This passage illustrates “salvation” is about being in a right relationship with God (as evidenced by Jesus saying “depart from Me, I never KNEW you”)

Lordship salvation says nothing more than the biblical truth that there is an expectation of a transformed life for those who are in a right relationship with God.

I don’t declare anyone saved or unsaved. I put no conditions of “you must do…. something” to prove your salvation. I would only caution that those with no evidence of a transformed life shouldn’t have assurance of salvation. That is biblical, as Paul gave similar warnings.

Peace to you

Or as Peter stated to us, make your election and calling sure

 

[canadyjd]

Would that be a common view in some Free Grace churches. a focusing on what "we can do?"

Well, I do believe the “free grace” gospel, as I understand it, is focused on the person “making a decision” for Jesus.

It is focused more on the person and what they do. Jesus is usually presented as waiting diligently for any who will respond, so He has an opportunity to intervene at their request.

Very little, or no attention, is made of God Holy Spirit’s role in drawing, convicting of sin and truth, of regenerating which allows the person to respond to the gospel with faith in Christ.

Peace to you

 

[JesusFan]

Well, I do believe the “free grace” gospel, as I understand it, is focused on the person “making a decision” for Jesus.

It is focused more on the person and what they do. Jesus is usually presented as waiting diligently for any who will respond, so He has an opportunity to intervene at their request.

Very little, or no attention, is made of God Holy Spirit’s role in drawing, convicting of sin and truth, of regenerating which allows the person to respond to the gospel with faith in Christ.

Peace to you

Seems that most who advocate "free grace" theology are non Cals, while Cals affirm Lordship theology

 

[canadyjd]

Seems that most who advocate "free grace" theology are non Cals, while Cals affirm Lordship theology

Well, not sure if I’d ever say “all” of one group believes a specific way. Many hold to less than the 5 points, sometimes only one.

And I have seen more than one “Calvinist” deny Lordship based on the same arguments against legalism.

I had a professor say the following, as a good guideline to assess a person’s beliefs.

Concerning Salvation….

If God is responding to to what the person does in granting salvation… that is a works based salvation.

If the person is responding to what God has done in their lives with faith in Jesus, that is grace based salvation.

That seems to be very concise.

This is a good thread. Thanks for sharing.

Peace to you