Is this statement true or false?

[Claudia_T]

The truth is that over and over again the Scriptures refer to Jesus as "The Angel of the Lord". And this doesnt mean Jesus is a literal Angel or that He is a created being.

..and the truth is there really isnt anything to say about it.

People have tried to use this doctrine over and over agan to condemn us, based on false information, trying to link us with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[Dustin]

[ April 28, 2006, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Dustin ]

 

[Bro. James]

The basic meaning of "angelos", which is transliterated angel, is: messenger. Some messengers are created spirit beings commonly called angels. Satan is a fallen angel. He has demonic spirits--also called angels.

Jesus, the Christ, is God in flesh. He is unique. He is the ultimate messenger but not a created being, but rather the Creator. See John Ch. 1:1-14. Great is the mystery of godliness.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Dustin]

I stand by what I said, in Jesus' name.

 

[Living_stone]

How many times in the OT do we find YHWH being called "The Angel of the LORD"??

I think the simplest explanation is that "the angel of the lord" was YHWH's mouthpiece. Angels are immaterial, and as such can bi-locate - meaning that they can be in heaven beholding God's face while at the same time watching over and communicating with us on earth (Matthew 18:10)

THey are speaking with YHWH by speaking with the angel of the Lord. The angel is not the Lord. Angels are created beings. God is not.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
The truth is that over and over again the Scriptures refer to Jesus as "The Angel of the Lord". And this doesnt mean Jesus is a literal Angel or that He is a created being.

..and the truth is there really isnt anything to say about it.

People have tried to use this doctrine over and over agan to condemn us, based on false information, trying to link us with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Claudia,

So you do agree with the statement....as you post...


As this study shows, according to scriptures, Jesus is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the angel of the covenant, the Archangel Michael, who appeared time and again in the Old Testament to speak directly to His people. Michael is just another title for the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh, the principle messenger of the gospel (archangel) to humanity, but He is not a created being.

All other posters are saying is that JW would also agree with this statement. Where as most ALL believers do not. Is that fair to say?

An Archangel is a high level angel. Is he not? Still he is a angel.

Now we need to look at Heb 1.

1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners,

2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

4 having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.

Note: This is talking about Christ. I think all would agree. Christ is much BETTER then angels.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee? and again, I will be to him a Father, And he shall be to me a Son?

Note: This is God the father talking to the Son. "Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee? and again, I will be to him a Father, And he shall be to me a Son?" Notice that this is asked...Who was this said about. To what angel. I say None. Christ was no angel.

6 And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Note..The angels are told to worship Him. Him being the Son in verse 5.

Now before we go on we need to see who Michael is. There have been posted made of all the texted that talk of him in the Bible. Is he a angel of high rank or is he Christ? I say he is a angel...one of many.

Daniel says..."But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

Michael, one of the chief...one of..humm.

If this were Christ how many Christ are there? How many chiefs do we have? I say only one. Now if this said "Prince of Princes, as in ONE..this would mean it was Christ. Clearly this is not Christ. Michael must be a high ranking angel..or as the Bible calls him..Archangel.

Back to verse 6..God says..Let all the angels of God worship Him...Him being the Son...Christ. Now if Michael is not Christ we should not worship him. If you are saying He is Christ, you in fact are worshipping a angel and not God.


7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels winds, And his ministers a flame a fire:

Note:..this is still God the Father talking. He now does not ask..but tells us what He said to the angels.

8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Note...But on the other hand...(still God the father talking)...Notice God the Father say this to the Son. "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever" The Father lefts up the Son..and Calls him God...and say it is the SONS throne....and that He and His throne will last forever and ever. The JWs hate this verse.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Note...now God the father calls himself God over the Son in verse 9. WOW..this is good stuff here.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:

Note..look at John 1. No need to go into this...this is well known.

11 They shall perish; but thou continuest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a mantle shalt thou roll them up, As a garment, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, And thy years shall not fail.

Note..Christ is unchanging...just as God...for He is God..not a angel. The devil..another high ranked angel..changed. He changed to evil. God never changes,,now does He? the same yesterday, today and forever. Christ is God.

13 But of which of the angels hath he said at any time, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet?

Note...God the father still talking...What angel did He..(God the Father).. say this to? NONE! He said it to no angel...but he did say it to the Son.

Christ was no angel in the sence of a rank under God. Christ is God just as much as The Father is God. God the Father lefted Christ up. Angels are to worship God. Angels DO have rank. Some are leaders of other angels. This is clear in Rev 12.

In Christ..James

 

[Living_stone]

The author of Hebrews states,

He (Jesus) took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high, as far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say: "You are my son; this day I have begotten you"? Or again: "I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me"? And again, when he leads the first-born into the world, he says: "Let all the angels of God worship him." Of the angels he says: "He makes his angels winds and his ministers a fiery flame"; but of the Son: "Your throne, O God, stands forever and ever; and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.

(Heb. 1). Here, the author of Hebrews separates Jesus from angels, and commands the angels to worship him.

That's as clear as it gets for me.

 

[tamborine lady]

Living Stone, you took the words right out of my mouth!!

Heb 1-4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

**********************************************

It doesn't matter what kind of theology one comes up with , or who came up with it first, the fact still remains, as proven by scripture.

Jesus is not Michael the Archangel!

Nuff said!!

Tam

 

[Jarthur001]

It looks like we all thought of the same verses

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3853/2.html#000025

 

[Jarthur001]

a bit more on archangels...

In Daniel 10.... as well as from the use of the word "sar" for human leaders elsewhere in the Hebrew OT..... that sar ("prince" or "archangel") is a martial office.

sariym ..."princes"..... in addition to Michael in Daniel 10 indicates a plurality of archangels beyond these two (Dan.10:13; 10:20-21; 12:1)

I feel also that this is seen in ..Rev 8:2

“And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.”

Lk.1:19...."I am Gabriel, who stand before God" …Gabriel another Archangel

These 7 angels are set apart from other angels again showing rank.

We should also understand the angelic "rulers" or archai of the epistles of Paul to be archangels (1Cor.15:24; Eph.1:21; 3:10; 6:12; Col.1:16; 2:10; 2:15;

..also the "angels" of 1Pet.3:22, where the arch- part is left out), the ….angelos part of their title being omitted as unnecessary (and potentially confusing) since in all of the instances cited, they are mentioned in company with other angels and angelic ranks.

"Authority" ....Greek: exousia, exousia...... is a somewhat lower rank in power than that of archangel, but, as their name implies, these angels are invested with significant spheres of operational authority. We may take them as high-level commanders, subordinate to the archangels ......indeed, the archai are usually only mentioned in tandem with the exousiai: 1Cor.15:24; Eph.1:21; 3:10; Col.1:16; 2:10; 2:15; 1Pet.3:22 [where angeloi = {arch}-angeloi]), but with significant numbers of subordinates of their own.

It is probable that the four angels of Revelation who restrain the winds and administer the first four trumpet judgments are of this rank ..Rev.7:1-3; 8:7-12


This shows both rank of angels
This shows there are many archangels.


In Christ...James

 

[Claudia_T]

Good gracious, cant you people read? Is been said time and time again that SDAs dont teach Jesus was a literal angel. It is just a term at times in the Bible that means "Messenger of God"

Its like you WANT so much to believe that we teach Jesus was an angel literally that you will just ignore what I say and make a zillion comments to try to prove Jesus wasnt an angel when nobody ever said that He was.


Claudia

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Good gracious, cant you people read? Is been said time and time again that SDAs dont teach Jesus was a literal angel. It is just a term at times in the Bible that means "Messenger of God"

Its like you WANT so much to believe that we teach Jesus was an angel literally that you will just ignore what I say and make a zillion comments to try to prove Jesus wasnt an angel when nobody ever said that He was.


Claudia

Read? indeed.

I think this was the opening post..

"Christ is called the Word of God. John 1:1-3. He is so called because God gave His revelations to man in all ages through Christ. It was His Spirit that inspired the prophets. 1 Peter 1:10, 11. He was revealed to them as the Angel of Jehovah, the Captain of the Lord's host, Michael the Archangel. "

You agreed and post more information where you claim once again Michael the Archangel and Christ are one and the same.

Are you now changing to...

SDAs dont teach Jesus was a literal angel?

is it now just a term?

just a term at times in the Bible that means "Messenger of God


Make up your mind. Is Michael the Archangel ...Christ?

A yes or no will clear the matter.


In Christ...James

 

[Kamoroso]

When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, He was first referred to as the angel of the Lord, and then plainly referred to as the Lord.

Exod 3:2-4 "2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I."

The angel of God which spoke to Jacob, was also verily God.

Gen 31:11-13 " 11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee.
13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred."


According to Paul, it was Christ that was with the children of Israel when they wandered through the wilderness. Christ is always the one who mediates between man and God.

1 Cor 10:1-4 "1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

God told the children of Israel that he would send His angel before them. This angel had God's name in Him. This is because this angel was Christ, whom Paul testified was the one who was with the children of Israel in the wilderness experience.

Exod 23:20-22 " 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries."

Without question, the angel of God in the above scriptures, was God HImself, as is clearly stated. The above scriptures, are not only holy scripture, but are themselves direct quotes from God Himself. If you are denying that the scriptures ever refer to God as an angel, then you are denying God Himself, who is quoted as saying the same.

God is not an angel. However, the scriptures themselves clearly refer to the angel of the Lord, or the Angel of God, when speaking of God.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

[tamborine lady]

And here all this time I thought it meant an angel was sent to speak for the Lord, or for God!!

How silly of me to think it was not God.

How crazy!! When the bible says an angel of the Lord spoke, he is talking for God; at least that's the way I see it!

Peace,

Tam

 

[Claudia_T]

JArthur,


Jesus is referred to in the Bible as Michael the Archangel. Is he a literal Angel? NO.


Thats about as simple as I can state it.

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

In Daniel, when the three Hebrew boys were cast into the fiery furnace for not bowing down to the golden statue, not three but four figures were seen in the furnace:

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Now most Christians would agree that this was indeed Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who walked with them in the furnace, in a pre-incarnation appearance. Yet, verse 28, interestingly enough, describes the fourth figure as an angel:

Dan 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his *angel*, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Kamoroso:
When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, He was first referred to as the angel of the Lord, and then plainly referred to as the Lord.

Exod 3:2-4 "2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I."

The angel of God which spoke to Jacob, was also verily God.

Gen 31:11-13 " 11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee.
13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred."


According to Paul, it was Christ that was with the children of Israel when they wandered through the wilderness. Christ is always the one who mediates between man and God.

1 Cor 10:1-4 "1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

God told the children of Israel that he would send His angel before them. This angel had God's name in Him. This is because this angel was Christ, whom Paul testified was the one who was with the children of Israel in the wilderness experience.

Exod 23:20-22 " 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries."

Without question, the angel of God in the above scriptures, was God HImself, as is clearly stated. The above scriptures, are not only holy scripture, but are themselves direct quotes from God Himself. If you are denying that the scriptures ever refer to God as an angel, then you are denying God Himself, who is quoted as saying the same.

God is not an angel. However, the scriptures themselves clearly refer to the angel of the Lord, or the Angel of God, when speaking of God.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

Hi Keith,

No one is disputing that the word “angel” can be used as an adjective. The word in its most simple form means “messager”. The passages that you keep posting proves this. Yet this is in no way to be linked to the celestrial angelic beings that we know as angels. Both meanings are used in the Bible. The reader must understand that NO angel is God to understand the meaning.

God created all angelic beings at creation …(including Satan and all those who would eventually rebel against Him). Though some would come to choose against God…. all the angels were originally created holy (Deut.33:2; Ps.89:7; Mk.8:38; Lk.9:26). This includes all the archangels..not just Michael.

God gave each of them distinct duties and definite domains in which to exercise specified authority delegated by Him
Col.1:16; Eph.6:12; Heb.1:7 & 14; Jude 6

If the word is used to describe Our Lord and Christ, it is then that we know it is only used as “message”..for if it meant “celestrial angelic beings”, this would mean Christ was a made at creation. This wrong view would also go against Heb 1..which we have already looked at.

Now back to the OP. ...is Christ a angel? If ..as you and others claim...the archangel ..is a title only for Christ, why are there more then one archangels? How many Christ do you believe in?

I'll give this to the JW. At least they know if Christ is a angel, He can not be God also. Some want to have it both ways...which cannot happen.

This maybe a good time to just trust the Word of God.


In Christ..James

 

[Claudia_T]

JArthur and Tamborine Lady,

Do you think people in the Bible bow down and worship someone besides God?

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, ...

Who leads the angelic host of heaven, who is their captain?

Josh 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Josh 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as *captain of the host* of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Josh 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Notice that Joshua worshipped the *captain of the Host*? If this were a mere angel, then the angel would have protested Joshua worshipping him, just as the angel protested John the Revelator worshipping him (Rev 22:8-9). So Joshua met with God (Jesus Christ) the *captain of the Host*. That is why he stood on holy ground and was asked to remove his shoes (just like Moses was asked in Exo 3:5 and Acts 7:33). Therefore, in Rev 12:7 you have Satan and his angels, and Jesus (Michael, the *captain of the Host*) and His angels - this was the war that began in heaven and continues today.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
JArthur,


Jesus is referred to in the Bible as Michael the Archangel. Is he a literal Angel? NO.


Thats about as simple as I can state it.

Claudia

Where does it say that MICHAEL is Jesus?
I need a verse

and yes...archangels are angels...not another being other then angels.
If you will read my post above you will understand this.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3853/2.html#000029

Archangel comes from 2 words..

archo....leader..chief...as in rank

and

aggeloes....angel

archo is telling what kind of angel it is.

There are MANY Archangels..as seen before.

Why make a big deal of it? To say Christ was a angel of any kind...is wrong..and means you worship a angel and not God.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi Claudia,


Josh 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Josh 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as *captain of the host* of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Josh 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

**************

This has been shown a few times to be used as a term showing Christ, yet not a angel.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3853/3.html#000036

In Christ..james