Is this statement true or false?

[Chemnitz]

But the word often is used for other beings besides God, including even men (the rulers of Israel--"revile not the gods".

What verse is that?

It's also of course used for the [false] gods of other nations.
It is just like our word "god/God", meaning both the true God, as well as false ones, depending on the context. (and we of course have capitalization, as well). YHWH was the name that specifically applied to God and no other. El/Elohim was more like a title, that rightly belonged to Him, but could loosely be applied to others as well.

That is true, but it is not a type of angel as others have implied.

 

[Eric B]

That's Exodus 22:28

And an angel could be considered a 'god' in that loose meaning of the word, but no, that does not mean Michael was God. That comes from both him and Christ being called "prince" in different places, and people thought they were therefore the same.

 

[Jarthur001]

But dont you see? The CAPTAIN OF THE HOSTS is Jesus.

James
I agree..
*****************

yes, but what are the HOSTS that He is captain of?

James..
Christ is captain of ALL. But I agree that in these passages He is captain of the full host of heaven. This includes angels.
****************

Havent you ever heard the tern "Heavenly Hosts" That refers to all the angels!


James..
Well...really is means He is Captain of the Army. Angels are part of this army..yes
*******************

Jesus is CAPTAIN or leader of all the angels and thus, called Michael the Archangel,


James
WRONG. SEE...this is where you error. If this were the case how many Chrsit have we?


In Christ..James

 

[Claudia_T]

James,


what does that have to do with anything?

Ok so at one time Jesus was the head of all the angels, then a third of the angels fell and satan is now head over the wicked angels.

What does this have to do with Jesus as Michael the archangel or Jesus as Captain of the Hosts

 

[Jarthur001]

Claudia,

You once again miss the point. Let me take this very slow.

Jesus ((IS)) Captain of the Host.

You said it.
I said it.

It is in the Bible for both of us to see.

You claim Jesus is Captain of the Angels...based on this.

You place Angels in place of Host. This is showing liberty of translation on your part. Host means many, or even better..Army.

Christ is Captain of the Army. Now you can say that this includes angels. But by leaving the meaning PURE...it leaves it open to other celestrial beings then just angels. Understand?

In other words..Christ is Captain of Angels yes...but also Archangels and"Authority" ....Greek: exousia the word Paul used of other celestrial beings, also cherubs. Also, if one does not translate with liberty as you did before, one must leave room for the other celestrial beings we find in Revalations. Now it is ture that we both may translate these into things we understand. Yet in honor of God and His word we leave this open.

So the proper wording is not Captain of Angels, but Captain of the Host...or Army.

Agree?

Now to the next phase you do not understand.

You feel because "captain of the host can be captain of angels that one can then jump and say Jesus is Michael the Archangel.

You say this for you know that Archangel means leader and if you take this with the phase "captain of the angels...to you this means one and the same. In your mind this places Archangel outside the realm of angels and into a class of its own.

I say this is wrong..for many reasons.

One...Archangel is 2 words.

archo....leader..chief...as in rank

and

aggeloes....angel

archo is the adjective describing what type of angel. YES an Archangel IS a angel. It is a leading angel, yet still a angel.

2nd..We have shown that there are MANY archangels. If you say Michael is The Christ for he is a leader of the angels, how many Christ do we have?

UNDERSTAND?

3rd...
It has been shown in heb that the Godhead has no rank. God the Father calls the Son God and in the next verse says God the father is God. Angels have ranks...arch being a leader. yet there are other ranks. But all are angels!!!

4th..
this has been shown... Satan another angel...changed from Good to evil.

This is clipped from a SDA book..by white.
"To dispute the supremacy of the Son of God, thus impeaching the wisdom and love of the Creator, had become the purpose of this prince of angels."

This is her view of Satan. Notice she calls him another prince of angels. The same wording found in the book of daniel.

God never changes. If Jesus were an archangel this would mean He could had a choice to change just as satan. This is not the nature of God. Yet you have posted before that Christ had this choice. This is WRONG.

from the same book look at this by white..

"The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son and show the relation He sustained to all created beings. The Son of God shared the Father's throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both. "

Notice how white paints the Son in rank under the Father. This is from a turly wild story by white about what happened in heaven. Satan sinned many times according to this story and yet was still in heaven. The Bible teaches sin is no part of a Holy Heaven. Notice how in this story God the Father calls the host together to SHOW the "true position" of the Son. many things wrong with this. 1st God is a spirit. Christ is the expression in image form of God. (heb 1) If God did as this story says, it would be the Son calling the meeting. This really musses up this story. But beyond that, all the Host knew that the Son is God. God the Father did not have to tell them. Even the falling angels knew this.

The truth is..this is just a wild made up story. This goes on for pages telling how satan had this evil heart and yet stayed in heaven. and then he went in secret trying to trick other angels into following him. The good angels according to the story...tried to talk the ones leaving into staying. WILD STUFF

Well...that is a bit off the subject but it is something else to read.

Anyway...Angels at one point had a choice. This was leading angels as well. White even calls satan as the same as a archangel...using the same words as daniel. satan changes...so if Michael were the same as Christ..this is saying he can change also.

Yet as we all know...Christ is no angel...now is He?
Christ is GOD.


In Christ..James.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Eliyahu, if you don't want people to respond. Don't post, otherwise be prepared to defend your statements.

I will admit what I said in response to your rumormongering was in anger, but it doesn't make what I wrote less true.

I didn't say that all the posters should not respond to me, but I said YOU Chemnitz should not respond to me so that you and I should avoid any more crashes. Isn't it wise solution? I don't have so much problem with other posters as with you. Not only you yourself, if I had any serious problem in arguing, it is wise that I stop any further argument with such specific person, I think.
So, please don't respond to my posts, because they are not aimed at you and you don't deserve my words.

The following was not the first time, and it proves what kind of man you are!

Please take back these Garbages into your mouth which were the source of such Garbage .

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
You ought to be ashamed of yourself for spouting such filth .
[/QB]


Originally posted by Chemnitz:
How dare you insinuate such garbage . . [/QB]


Originally posted by Chemnitz:
How dare you insinuate such garbage. You don't have the first clue about what is to be a Lutheran Pastor. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for spouting such filth .


Is your mouth Garbage Factory?

 

[Chemnitz]

Anybody who posts is fair game. You can't expect me to ignore somebody who is promoting false teachings.

Again why don't you inform people why I got angry with you.

Garbage what garbage? If you don't like people disputing your claims and calling you on spreading rumors maybe you ought to refrain from doing such.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Anybody who posts is fair game. You can't expect me to ignore somebody who is promoting false teachings.

Again why don't you inform people why I got angry with you.

Garbage what garbage? If you don't like people disputing your claims and calling you on spreading rumors maybe you ought to refrain from doing such.

I am not sure what went on here. But one of you guys or both of you needs to rise about this and forgive the past and go on. I'm not pointing to any one...for I do not know the history..nor do i know you two. I just see bitterness that needs to be taken care of.

Now who is going to do the right thing?


In Christ...James

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Anybody who posts is fair game. You can't expect me to ignore somebody who is promoting false teachings.

Again why don't you inform people why I got angry with you.

Garbage what garbage? If you don't like people disputing your claims and calling you on spreading rumors maybe you ought to refrain from doing such.

I gave you the chance to apologize to me but you refuse it.
You don't know what is allowed in the debate and what is not allowed.
Moreover, that was not the first happening, and it happened several times. In such case, it is quite wise that we'd better avoid any argument between you and me.

My post was not a problem, you post it and let the people judge how is the difference.

Again the Lord kindly advise me:
Matt 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.


Was Jesus wrong?

Again, I say to you, please don't respond to me as my posts are not addressed to you, and that you and I know that both quickly argue each other and you will spout another garbage, if we respond each other. This is the only wise solution, I believe.

I told you already, that the other posters are OK as they never spouted garbages like you!
You are not worthy to respond to me, please!

 

[Chemnitz]

James, I am perfectly willing to let it drop, but I am not the one who keeps bringing it up. I was willing to leave the whole incident in the pass despite the deceitful remarks made towards men such as myself and having my salvation question numerous times. I am not even bitter over the whole incident. I do think it is funny and sad I am being lectured on debating by somebody who repeatedly calls others whores and questions the salvation of people who disagree with him.

 

[webdog]

JArthur,


Jesus is referred to in the Bible as Michael the Archangel. Is he a literal Angel? NO.


Thats about as simple as I can state it.

Claudia

If Jesus is referred to as "Michael the Archangel" in Scripture, did He not have power to rebuke satan?

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when he was disputing with the Devil in a debate about Moses' body, did not dare bring an abusive condemnation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

This verse alone dispells the myth that Jesus and Michael are on in the same.

 

[Claudia_T]

webdog,

I dont think thats right. I think when He says the Lord He is referring to Himself

 

[Eliyahu]

It is difficult to judge here.
Dan 12:1 says Michael, Ha-Shar Hagadol, which means Michael, the Great Prince. If we think about Dan 8:25 which says "Prince of princes" it sounds like indicating Pre-Incarnate Jesus.
However, "Shar" indicated "prince, commander, noble, etc." not Pre-Incarnate Jesus before. In Daniel, he mentions "Masiach" separately in 9:25-26.
As we should trust Jude most in interpretting, he didn't mention him as more than Archangel. In my survey, Michael appears 14 times in the Bible and 4 of them refers to Michael Archangel as in Dan 10:13, 10:21, 12:1, Jude.
If we carefully read Dan 10, we notice he is one of the princes, a powerful angel in charge of Israel.
I would not rule out the possibility that Michael might be Pre-Incarnate Jesus. Michael seems to be one of the several powerful princes of angels.
In case of Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ, He is usually mentioned as Ha-Malack.
Gen 31:11 says " the Angel" said to Jacob. Then the Angel declares " I am God " ( Gen 31:13)
Jacob confesses that the Angel ( Malack) was his Redeemer from all evils. ( Gen 48:16)
Jehovah told Moses that He would send the Malack ahead of Israel and that they should obey Him because " my name is in Him" (Exodus 23:21), which is a terrible statement.

Jesus said " I am come in my father's name" ( John 5:43)

Judges 13:18 says His name(Ha-Malack's name) is "Wonderful" which is Peleh in Hebrew as we read Isaiah 9:6.
In case of "Ha-Malack", His deity is clear, while Michael seems to be an working angel, and Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ was quite above the Anrchangels, and no one can be compared to Him.
The Malack ( Special Angel) who called Abraham in Gen 22 was this Angel. So, we can understand that Jesus worked very much even before His coming into this world.

But the angels are the ministering spirits.
Objections may come from his name, Michael (who is like God), but we can interpret it as a Praise to God. I believe Michael is different from Jesus since the deity of Michael is never mentioned.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
webdog,

I dont think thats right. I think when He says the Lord He is referring to Himself

Well Claudia as it turns out, webdog is right on the money.
The Greek language carries this idea. ..the expression of the action..is placed on "The Lord" in that He/God would take care of this matter of dispute Himself and that it is HE/ God that would properly restrain and control Satan and not the the speaker, which in this case is Michael.

Michael sets himself apart from "The Lord" either because he does not have the power of his own to do so, or he knows that this is Gods place to do this and not him.

The same idea can be seen in Zech 3: 2 when the angel showed respect for Satans power. For more reading on this check out Dr Spiros Zodhiates Hebrew-Greek Study Bible.

Zodhiates...

"Michael did not bring a railing accusation against the devil, but said, "the Lord rebuke you." He wanted to to show that neither believers nor angels will be able to put the devil out of commission..."
Page 1557

Kenneth Wuest puts it this way...again from the Greek

"Michael the archangel, when disputing with the devil, arguing concerning the body of Moses, dared not bring a sentence of judgement that would impugn his dignity, but said May the Lord rebuke you"

Expanded Greek NT
Page 582

Also check out George Berry Greek-English NT

In Christ...James

 

[James_Newman]

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Michael the archangel has a name, and it is not the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Claudia_T]

Im sorry but I just dont feel like trying to follow all of your winding ideas.

Unfortunately, you just dont realize who Michael is. He is Jesus Christ and no other.


Dan:12:1: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people : and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


At that time Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords.

 

[Claudia_T]

Also, you just dont comprehend the purposes of Satan against God. His purpose has always been to cast doubt upon God and His government, His authority, His commandments, His Laws.

That was why Satan (once Lucifer) was cast out of Heaven and a third of the Angels cast out with him, down to earth.

Since then, Satan has endeavored to cast doubt on God, to cause distrust of Him and His Law. Satan, once thrown out of heaven, went after Adam and Eve, then after Jesus when He was born, and now in the end times he is going after those remnant people of God who still believe in keeping God's commandments and who will stand up for God's character and integrity in this controversy between good and evil.

Unfortunately, you dont realize you are helping him out in his endeavors.


Rv:12:9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Rv:12:4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


Gen:3:1: Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This thing you term a "Wild Story" is in the Bible, but you just need to open up your mind a little bit and then it will become clear to you.

You have no idea of why we are to be Christians, we are to represent Christ and to honor God by showing the world His ways, His Laws... giving glory to Him by our good works.

Unfortunately you seem to be confined to the idea of "how little can I do and still get to heaven" and "let me glorify God by not doing anything except for claiming the sacrifice of Jesus"... and while you are in that state of mind, these things in the Bible will remain closed to you, I'm afraid.

Deut. 4
5: Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
6: Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.


Mt:5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Claudia

 

[Jarthur001]

This thing you term a "Wild Story" is in the Bible, but you just need to open up your mind a little bit and then it will become clear to you.


Humm ...well, i'm not asking for the passage, for I know it is not there. Let me plead with you to drop doctrine built on words from outside of Gods Word. I will not address Daniel again. I have posted this as linked to chapter 10 many times already and you will not reply.

I have used logic in this debate.
I have used the English text of the Bible in this debate.
I have used Whites own words in this debate.
I have shown Greek support in this debate.
I have address each verse on the subject

In all cases, with many means and angles , I have proven without question, that this is a false doctrine. One needs only to read, understand and listen to Holy Spirit.

Yet you hold to a wild story. May God help you.


In Christ..James

 

[Eliyahu]

Joshua 5:13- 15

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, [Art] thou for us, or for our adversaries?


Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but [as] captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him , What saith my lord unto his servant?


Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy. And Joshua did so.
Return to Top

Who was this man, Captain of the Host of Jehovah?

Why did Joshua worship him? Is it normal that angels order mankind to loose the shoes off ?

Are we supposed to worship Angels other than God?

However, still I separate Malack from Elohim ( angels) and see Michael as Arch-Angel, not the Malack.

 

[Claudia_T]

James,

God has already helped me.

Claudia