-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is this the Arminian Stumper?
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
ScottEmerson
Active Member
Would you say that rejecting Christ is a stupid choice?
Would you say that rejecting Christ is a wise choice?</font>[/QUOTE]The choice to follow Christ comes on a different plain than intelligence/stupitity or being intrisically wise/foolish.
Perhaps that is what messes up Calvinists.
ScottEmerson
Active Member
If we assume (as you say you do) that man's will is TOTALLY free, then it must, logically, be totally free of biases to choose or reject Christ. Free will is not choosing - the person possessing such free will chooses.
Of course not. People all over the world are searching for love, peace, and joy. They search in many different areas - possessions, other religions, humanism. Some search for God and some of those choose him - for no reason other than a mere choice. Free will is totally free.
ScottEmerson
Active Member
Again, you assume many things. First of all, you assume that the choice to say "yes" to God required an intelligent, rational decision. I have found that people say "yes" to Christ at a point of surrender. Ironically, surrendering to Christ is something unnatural to man, and ultimately illogical. Every man has a desire for something more. Those willing to surrender to Christ ultimately get it. And, like it or not, there is nothing that determines one way or another that "determines" such a decision of free will.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Npetreley asked, to wit, 'Where did I get my inclination?'
My mother took me to Sunday School nearly every Sunday. My mother taught Child Evangelism and I had no choice but to go with her. My mother took me to Vacation Bible School. I learned at an early age that there is a God, but I was not convinced at an early age. I learned at an early age that I am a sinner, but I was not convinced at an early age. I did not become convinced until I had to make a choice. Then I relied on what I had previously learned (the DNA) in making MY personal choice to believe it to be true. It was only when I became convinced, that I truly believed. Even then, I did not stop sinning, but I did "feel" the weight of the burden of guilt. And until I submitted it all to Jesus I did not have the burden lifted from me.
Ironically, my younger brother (18 months) who attended Sunday School, Child Evangelism, and VBS right at my side, does not have a personal relationship with Jesus. He believes there is a God, but thinks of God as a rancher with horses on a thousand hills, and that riding one makes him closer to God.
So here we have two boys of the same parents who had the same early childhood. One chose to believe in God in the scriptural manner, the other knows there is a God, but that is as far as it goes with him.
You would have me believe that one is "elected" the other is not?
HOGWASH! Both are equally sinners! One chose rightly the other has not made that decision yet. Both are in their 60s, what are the chances?
My mother took me to Sunday School nearly every Sunday. My mother taught Child Evangelism and I had no choice but to go with her. My mother took me to Vacation Bible School. I learned at an early age that there is a God, but I was not convinced at an early age. I learned at an early age that I am a sinner, but I was not convinced at an early age. I did not become convinced until I had to make a choice. Then I relied on what I had previously learned (the DNA) in making MY personal choice to believe it to be true. It was only when I became convinced, that I truly believed. Even then, I did not stop sinning, but I did "feel" the weight of the burden of guilt. And until I submitted it all to Jesus I did not have the burden lifted from me.
Ironically, my younger brother (18 months) who attended Sunday School, Child Evangelism, and VBS right at my side, does not have a personal relationship with Jesus. He believes there is a God, but thinks of God as a rancher with horses on a thousand hills, and that riding one makes him closer to God.
So here we have two boys of the same parents who had the same early childhood. One chose to believe in God in the scriptural manner, the other knows there is a God, but that is as far as it goes with him.
You would have me believe that one is "elected" the other is not?
HOGWASH! Both are equally sinners! One chose rightly the other has not made that decision yet. Both are in their 60s, what are the chances?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The thrust of your reply indicates that you believe that God made robots that only obey God's Commands, or that God has each and every human that ever lived on some kind of tether, and that he 'leads' some to heaven and all the rest God leads to hell!
It don't work that way my friend!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You say that Calvinism makes us like robots or on a tether. How is that much different than Paul make us out to be lumps of clay in the hands of our maker (Romans 9). I don't know, robots seem to have more of a "free will" than wet dirt.
If Paul was "Arminian" why would he compare us to clay? That would be taking away our right to choose!
[ January 20, 2003, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Samuel ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The thrust of your reply indicates that you believe that God made robots that only obey God's Commands, or that God has each and every human that ever lived on some kind of tether, and that he 'leads' some to heaven and all the rest God leads to hell!
It don't work that way my friend!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You say that Calvinism makes us like robots or on a tether. How is that much different than Paul make us out to be lumps of clay in the hands of our maker (Romans 9). I don't know, robots seem to have more of a "free will" than wet dirt.
If Paul was "Arminian" why would he compare us to clay? That would be taking away our right to choose!
[ January 20, 2003, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Samuel ]
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
That right there is the problem with Arminian theology. "what are the chances." If its not up to God it's up to chance. There was a chance no one would believe. There was a chance God could fail. What is chance? Is it more powerful than God? If chance exists God cannot be Soveriegn.
Speaking of brothers. I heard about two twins who were also raised by the same parents. God loved one of them and hated the other. Their names were Jacob and Esau. Now that aint HOG WASH its scripture.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
With the Exception of Paul, whom Christ recruited in a miraculous way, and Jonah, who was on God's team but got a bit rebellious, Can you cite me any other record where God even attempted to mold the unwilling unbeliever?
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Great Catch Shilo!
Y
Yelsew
Guest
NO SIR! That is what the Calvinist have been telling us, and would have all others believe, by denying that all mankind has and uses free will to come to faith in anything, especially faith in an unseen God!
Does God mold lumps of clay that are not completely ready to be molded? That is are fully submitted to being molded.
Not true, because once we submit ourselves to God, we have made the choice to allow God to mold us into whatever he would like us to be. But until we are ready, God does not force us.
Have you ever seen what happens to clay that is forced? It rips, cracks, shatters, and is utterly useless to the potter!
I agree with the first. You have taken a page right out of the calvinist book. Unfortunately, you have applied it to the wrong position. That statement shows why your position cannot be right. Intelligence and stupidity and wisdom and foolishness cannot account for it. Only the Spirit of God can.
Here's two boys, both dead in trespasses and sins. Now one is alive, and one is still dead. How is that? Were you somehow "less dead" than your brother? Is that how you were able to choose? How can you be "less dead?" Or rather, if you're dead, how can you choose at all?
Maybe it would be wiser to recognize that your salvation is a work of sovereign grace, not something that you did.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Good night, how many examples from scripture do you need before you believe that God does mold unwilling hearts. All the disciples were chosen of God (Jn 15:16) and they dropped everything to follow Him, without question.
You try to get 12 men to drop their careers, families, everything and follow you without as much as an explaination of why. That is pretty miraculous. Scripture doesn't teach that Christ asked the disciples if they would choose Him or make a decision for Him. He does the choosing and the appointing (Jn. 15-16ff).
David is also a good example. Ever read Ps. 139? I could go on, but the point is that it only takes one example to prove how God deal's with His people.
If Paul were answering the question at the beginning of this post there is no doubt what his answer would be. He would say, "God set me apart from my mother womb." And I'm quite sure the other disciples felt the same way.
What verse in the Bible tells us that He deals with us any differently than He did the first disciples?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
SAM: Wow, you made my point for me. Paul calls us cracked vessels. We are ripped, cracked, shatters and useless to everyone except the potter who chooses to use the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. We must die in order to live. We must be broken in order to be used.Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
YELSEW: Does God mold lumps of clay that are not completely ready to be molded? That is are fully submitted to being molded.
SAM: I don't know, I've never asked clay, "Hey, are you ready to be molded now?" How exactly does dirt submit?
Seriously, have you even read Romans 9? The entire context of God's molding clay is speaking of those who "resist his will" and questions the maker, "Why did you make me like this." The clay here doesn't seem "submitted" or "ready" to be molded. If anything the clay is rebellious and questioning his molder. Which is why Paul says, "Who are you to talk back to God."
YELSEW: Not true, because once we submit ourselves to God, we have made the choice to allow God to mold us into whatever he would like us to be. But until we are ready, God does not force us.
SAM: Reeeeeeeeally, are you saying Paul was being submissive to Christ on the road to Damascus? Does the clay in Romans 9:18-21 sound like its ready to be molded into whatever God wants it to be?
We must be born again. I've been in the labor room 3 times with my wife, there is some forcing involved
YELSEW: Have you ever seen what happens to clay that is forced? It rips, cracks, shatters, and is utterly useless to the potter!</font>
what you did was come to the Bible with your preconcieved ideas about God..you found a scripture that you thought you could make fit with your preconcived ideas....
You twisted the scripture just as you twisted my words..for I said YOUR..You Samuel..Your insinuations were Hogwash. I said not one thing about God.
..why don't you find out the REASON God hated Esau.
BTW..Election as Calvinist define it isnt even a consideration in Chapter 9..
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
what you did was come to the Bible with your preconcieved ideas about God..you found a scripture that you thought you could make fit with your preconcived ideas....
You twisted the scripture just as you twisted my words..for I said YOUR..You Samuel..Your insinuations were Hogwash. I said not one thing about God.
..why don't you find out the REASON God hated Esau.
BTW..Election as Calvinist define it isnt even a consideration in Chapter 9..[/QUOTE]
No, I was raised Arminian and came to the scriptures with the same preconcieved ideas you have. Those ideas didn't match up with God's Word, so I adapted my beliefs to match the scripture.
And I wasn't twisting your words I was just redirecting the blame. You were blaming me for something God insinuates in scripture. Until you offer another interpretation of that scripture the readers of it assume that God means exactly what it sounds like he means. He chose Jacob, not Esau. He love Jacob and hated Esau.
Shilo, if we were debating Heb. 6 where the writer insinuates that you can lose your salvation. Let's say you quote it as a support of your views (which you may or may not really hold to). It would be my burden to explain how that passage is reconciled with my beliefs. Make since?
I already know the "reason" God hated Esau. Verse 11 of Romans 9 tells us plainly, "in order that God's purpose in election might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls." It was God's choice, no other reason! Same as His election of us.
HOW DOES ROMANS 9 NOT HAVE TO DO WITH ELECTION (BY ANYONES DEFINATION)?????
When you speak of Election you mean as in Salvation. Salvation isn't an issue here at all. Also. Individuals are NOT being spoken about Ie. Esau and Jacob as individuals
The Election concerns the Messianic line of Abraham-Issac-Jacob-Jesus Christ. It is an Election to National preferance or theocratic priviledges and there is nothing having to do with salvation in it.
Gen 25:22-23 confirms this.
So although the children were born (rom 9:11) Nothing took place before the foundation of the world- they were in the womb of rebekah when it was said "the elder shall serve the younger" (Gen25:23) (rom 9:12) Individuals are not under discussion- Nations were: two nations, two manner of People. (gen 25:23)
[ January 21, 2003, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: shilo ]