Is this the Arminian Stumper?

Nope. That is not my thrust nor is that the thrust of Calvinism... it is however the common distortion of Calvinism by those opposed to it. Calvinism is indeed the system that best accounts for scripture in its totality.

 

Would you say that rejecting Christ is a stupid choice?

Would you say that rejecting Christ is a wise choice?</font>[/QUOTE]The choice to follow Christ comes on a different plain than intelligence/stupitity or being intrisically wise/foolish.

Perhaps that is what messes up Calvinists.

 

If we assume (as you say you do) that man's will is TOTALLY free, then it must, logically, be totally free of biases to choose or reject Christ. Free will is not choosing - the person possessing such free will chooses.

Of course not. People all over the world are searching for love, peace, and joy. They search in many different areas - possessions, other religions, humanism. Some search for God and some of those choose him - for no reason other than a mere choice. Free will is totally free.

 

Again, you assume many things. First of all, you assume that the choice to say "yes" to God required an intelligent, rational decision. I have found that people say "yes" to Christ at a point of surrender. Ironically, surrendering to Christ is something unnatural to man, and ultimately illogical. Every man has a desire for something more. Those willing to surrender to Christ ultimately get it. And, like it or not, there is nothing that determines one way or another that "determines" such a decision of free will.

 

Npetreley asked, to wit, 'Where did I get my inclination?'

My mother took me to Sunday School nearly every Sunday. My mother taught Child Evangelism and I had no choice but to go with her. My mother took me to Vacation Bible School. I learned at an early age that there is a God, but I was not convinced at an early age. I learned at an early age that I am a sinner, but I was not convinced at an early age. I did not become convinced until I had to make a choice. Then I relied on what I had previously learned (the DNA) in making MY personal choice to believe it to be true. It was only when I became convinced, that I truly believed. Even then, I did not stop sinning, but I did "feel" the weight of the burden of guilt. And until I submitted it all to Jesus I did not have the burden lifted from me.

Ironically, my younger brother (18 months) who attended Sunday School, Child Evangelism, and VBS right at my side, does not have a personal relationship with Jesus. He believes there is a God, but thinks of God as a rancher with horses on a thousand hills, and that riding one makes him closer to God.

So here we have two boys of the same parents who had the same early childhood. One chose to believe in God in the scriptural manner, the other knows there is a God, but that is as far as it goes with him.

You would have me believe that one is "elected" the other is not?
HOGWASH! Both are equally sinners! One chose rightly the other has not made that decision yet. Both are in their 60s, what are the chances?

 

With the Exception of Paul, whom Christ recruited in a miraculous way, and Jonah, who was on God's team but got a bit rebellious, Can you cite me any other record where God even attempted to mold the unwilling unbeliever?

 

Great Catch Shilo!

 

NO SIR! That is what the Calvinist have been telling us, and would have all others believe, by denying that all mankind has and uses free will to come to faith in anything, especially faith in an unseen God!

Does God mold lumps of clay that are not completely ready to be molded? That is are fully submitted to being molded.

Not true, because once we submit ourselves to God, we have made the choice to allow God to mold us into whatever he would like us to be. But until we are ready, God does not force us.

Have you ever seen what happens to clay that is forced? It rips, cracks, shatters, and is utterly useless to the potter!

 

I agree with the first. You have taken a page right out of the calvinist book. Unfortunately, you have applied it to the wrong position. That statement shows why your position cannot be right. Intelligence and stupidity and wisdom and foolishness cannot account for it. Only the Spirit of God can.

 

Here's two boys, both dead in trespasses and sins. Now one is alive, and one is still dead. How is that? Were you somehow "less dead" than your brother? Is that how you were able to choose? How can you be "less dead?" Or rather, if you're dead, how can you choose at all?

Maybe it would be wiser to recognize that your salvation is a work of sovereign grace, not something that you did.

 

what you did was come to the Bible with your preconcieved ideas about God..you found a scripture that you thought you could make fit with your preconcived ideas....

You twisted the scripture just as you twisted my words..for I said YOUR..You Samuel..Your insinuations were Hogwash. I said not one thing about God.

..why don't you find out the REASON God hated Esau.

BTW..Election as Calvinist define it isnt even a consideration in Chapter 9..

 

I think the real question is how He could have possibly loved Jacob?

 

When you speak of Election you mean as in Salvation. Salvation isn't an issue here at all. Also. Individuals are NOT being spoken about Ie. Esau and Jacob as individuals

The Election concerns the Messianic line of Abraham-Issac-Jacob-Jesus Christ. It is an Election to National preferance or theocratic priviledges and there is nothing having to do with salvation in it.

Gen 25:22-23 confirms this.

So although the children were born (rom 9:11) Nothing took place before the foundation of the world- they were in the womb of rebekah when it was said "the elder shall serve the younger" (Gen25:23) (rom 9:12) Individuals are not under discussion- Nations were: two nations, two manner of People. (gen 25:23)

[ January 21, 2003, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: shilo ]