Is to be Cleansed or Free From All Sin, Sin?

[annsni]

Godlovesme - Go away and stop trolling. You are reported and will be banned in just a few minutes.

 

[Yeshua1]

Just to play the devil's advocate here. Then why try to be holy? Why bother with sanctification as that is hard work. I mean if we're covered by the blood of Christ and we'll never reach perfection then why even try. We can't make it but we covered. So what the point of trying? Lets just keep on sinning as its easier to do and we're covered anyway.

the blood of Chrsit, his death, provided for us FULL atonement for sins, so faith in Him allows God to apply that towards us and immediantly fully justify us before God, secured and saved, but we still need to mature and grow up in Christ, as start as new born babes in Christ!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: ....the claim of sinlessness is sin, in and of itself.

HP: This remark is simply tops the list as an unbiblical and absurd notion. When one makes such a comment, they can prepare themselves for a justified response carrying out such absurdity to its illogical conclusions. If one does not desire to have their comments critiqued, they need to stay off a debate forum for certain.

This is the dirty little secret of those holding to a sinning religion. They know those claiming that God can and does deliver one from sin are not saying in way shape or form they do it on their own or by their own power. BUT every time they throw up the notion of sinlessness, they act 'as if though' one that would claim such is acting in a self righteous manner. So don't preach to me Biblicist, about perverting what one says or believes. If you are on the trail of finding ones that pervert and abuse the beliefs of others, look at yourself in the mirror.

In reality there is not a shred of self righteousness in trusting in God to delver one from all sin, or to trust in God's promises to keep one clean and pure by faith if one will but trust and obey. Obedience is not self righteousness Biblicist, nor is asking God to cleanse ones heart from all sin and to keep one clean and pure on a daily basis. There is not a shred of self righteousness to believe and to trust God to do precisely what He promises to help us accomplish via faith in Him. God will help any and all accomplish their hearts desire if they simply yield themselves to Him. God will honor and promises to fulfill the sincere desire of any trusting obedient soul, a living daily reality.

Stop perverting the beliefs of those seeking God to live Holy before Him Biblicist. It is not sin to claim that God is supplying ones every need in living above sin in this present world as the comments of DHK clearly insinuates it is, and you seem duty bound to support.

To think that one claiming to be a minister of the gospel would be such an enemy of walking pure and blameless before God depending completely on the daily help God proffers.

 

[DHK]

HP: This remark is simply tops the list as an unbiblical and absurd notion. When one makes such a comment, they can prepare themselves for a justified response carrying out such absurdity to its illogical conclusions. If one does not desire to have their comments critiqued, they need to stay off a debate forum for certain.

The remark referred to:
"To CLAIM sinlessness is sin itself." It is a sin HP, if you are claiming to be sinless. How big of a sin is it? Let us examine that.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

In claiming sinlessness:
1. You have deceived yourself.
2. The truth is not in you.
3. You make Christ a liar.
4. His Word is not in you.

If the above is true about you, one would have to conclude that you are not even saved. Calling Christ a liar is blasphemy of the worst sort. How can one call Christ a liar and still be saved? You are deceived (it says). You don't even have the truth. Furthermore, God's Word is not in you. Therefore how in the world, can you even think that you are saved?? That is what this passage is saying to anyone who claims that they are sinless!!

You can take it or leave it. But that is what the passage teaches.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: This remark is simply tops the list as an unbiblical and absurd notion. When one makes such a comment, they can prepare themselves for a justified response carrying out such absurdity to its illogical conclusions. If one does not desire to have their comments critiqued, they need to stay off a debate forum for certain.

DHK simply paraphrase 1 John 1:8. So your disgust is directed actually toward John.

1 John 1:8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

We have read how you explain away, pervert and distort John's words. He says "we" and you deny he was including himself with his Christian readers. He says "ourselves" and you deny he is speaking about himself and his Christian readers. He says the truth is not in "us" IF "we" make that kind of profession, the exact kind of profession you make and you deny it. Hence, you deny the plain meaning of words, the contextual definition of "we" and "us" and explain away the common sense and obvious meaning of God's word to avoid being called a liar by the Apostle John.

This is the dirty little secret of those holding to a sinning religion. They know those claiming that God can and does deliver one from sin are not saying in way shape or form they do it on their own or by their own power.

The argument is not about "power" at all and that is the little dirty secret of those who pervert the Word of God. The "power" objection is simply a distraction from the real truth. The real truth it is about the clear and explicit Bibilcal teaching of the PERSONAL CONDITION of the child of God this side of glorification. You are simply not glorified yet! There is the dirty little secret you want to avoid at all cost. Your false doctrine has only a white or black side to it. Your doctrine teaches either one is sinful or one is sinless with no in between while the Scriptures clearly and explicilty teach that sanctification is progressive and in spiritual stages of growth while clearly denying that even the most spiritual man in the book of Acts, the apostle Paul at the height of his spirtuality claimed sinlessness but used the present tense "I AM" to describe his personal condition in regard to sin "I AM the cheif of sinners" not I was.

The issue is not one of power but clear denial by scripture repeatedly that even "mature" or the archaic equivent to "mature" = the "perfect" man above all men knows that anyone who claims sinless perfection is an absolute joke (Philip 3:12-14).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here is an interesting verse:
Pro 13:19 The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul: but it is abomination to fools to depart from evil.

 

[DHK]

Here is an interesting verse:
Pro 13:19 The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul: but it is abomination to fools to depart from evil.

And your point is?????

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I'd like to meet a sinless person. Oh, wait, there's only been one of those.

 

[12strings]

Here is an interesting verse:
Pro 13:19 The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul: but it is abomination to fools to depart from evil.

Again, you are confusing the issue, Niether DHK, Bib, or now me are saying we should not depart from evil...we just see ovewhelming evidence from both scripture and real life that we cannot perfectly do so yet. There may be those who say this, in which case using this verse would be a fitting response...but I haven't seen them on this board.

 

[12strings]

1. The continued ability of believers to sin is found throughout scriptures, and is not negated by the warnings of apostasy or false profession, but must be held in tension with it.

Galatians 5:17 - For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

1 John 1:8 - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (speaking to believers, as is verse 9, and the rest of the book).

Matt. 6 - (we are taught to pray daily, "forgive us our sins")

David persisted in hiding and escalating his sin with Bathsheba for at least several weeks. Was he not a true follower of God at this time?

Job, after protesting his righteousness for most of the book; after being addressed by a Holy God, confesses: "Then Job answered the Lord and said, Behold, I am vile." (Job 40:3-4).

Romans 7, Paul speaks in the FIRST PERSON, & THE PRESENT TENSE, and therefore...AS A BELIEVER: 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate....


2. Then sinless view puts a burden on people that they cannot bear, because it tells them that if their testimony is one of current struggle with sin, like that of Paul, or if they seek to obey 1 John 1:8 and not claim to be without sin, they must not be saved.

3. Acknowledging indwelling sin that is always affecting our thoughts and decisions does not lead to defeat, but frees us to pursue righteousness in the grace of God, rather than under fear of punishment. We are no longer those who seek to establish our own righteousness, but submit to the righteousness of Christ. (Rom. 10:3)

Galatians 2:16 - yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

4. You cannot point to a Biblical or extrabiblical beleiver who has lived a sinless life after conversion. The Thief on the cross does not prove the issue one way or the other, since the text SIMPLY DOES NOT TELL us what he did or said after his belief. Any speculation is just that.

***If you feel that I am not understanding your position, I would be glad to hear your clarifications.

 

[steaver]

The new birth is a creative act of God that produces a new WANT TO within the elect that DESIRES to be righteous irregardless of the obstacles so that we are never satisfied with ourselves as we are:


Phlip. 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

The regenerate nature only is satisfied when we are like him:

1 Jn. 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

The obstacle that constantly stands in our way is the indwelling law of sin and progressive sanctification is the struggle between the two and spiritual growth is determined by how much we progress in that struggle.

Excellent answer! :thumbsup: We do not just sin and not care BECAUSE we have been born of God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

For the kindness of the response and questions of 12strings, I would like to clarify a point. To live a sanctified life, free from sin subsequent to salvation does NOT say or imply one has never sinned subsequent to salvation, nor does anyone hold to that as being what living above sin has or does entail. Such is a paper duck placed up by those holding to a sinning religion as a hammer against any and all that would seek to live a life free of sin through the power promised to us as believers by God Himself.

What a life of sanctification, perfect love, or holiness is, is nothing more or less than a consistent holy walk before God, where sin IF it does occur would be the abnormal, NOT he normal way of ones life, to the point that one sins so little and so quick to repent and to turn from such sin IF in fact it does occur, that it can be rightfully said of such a one, they do not sin.

The verse by the apostle John clearly indicates this in the following verse.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The plain truth is, that one cannot remain in good standing before the Lord with unconfessed sins in ones life that they are refusing to repent and to turn from, refusing to trust God to free them from a life of such sin. God never receives glory by the admission of sin when it is not forsaken or repented and turned from. Obedience is what God demands. Obedience is far better than sacrifice or the mere testimony of sinning every day. Love demands obedience, and nothing less will suffice.

This 'so called humility' expressed by so many, that testifies to sinning daily as believers, is an affront to the promised power of God in our lives, which God promises to all believers, to KEEP one from sin and evil, in this present world.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

When one testifies to sinning every day, such a testimony is like saying, thanks God, but I would rather have and placate my sin than to depend on You for the daily help to free myself from my selfish actions, i.e., my sins. It is like saying, I love you God, but I love my sin more. It is like telling ones spouse, I love you, but I love to commit adultery more. Such nonsense will not placate ones spouse, and we will not fool or placate God either.


Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.


Heb 12:14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

 

[The Biblicist]

What a life of sanctification, perfect love, or holiness is, is nothing more or less than a consistent holy walk before God, where sin IF it does occur would be the abnormal, NOT he normal way of ones life, to the point that one sins so little and so quick to repent and to turn from such sin IF in fact it does occur, that it can be rightfully said of such a one, they do not sin.

Hence, you rule out all Spiritual growth in regard to sin. You simply have a black or white relationship with sin. Either you are consistently sinless or you have sinned and need confession to return to consistent sinlessness. That is not the experience of any of the apostles. Paul near the end of his life and writing under inspiration claimed "I AM" the cheif of sinners not "I WAS" or "SOMETIMES" he is! John claims the very same thing in regard to himself and the Christians he is writing to (1 Jn. 1:8-10). Isaiah, Job, Moses all claimed the very same thing.

You cannot distinguish between the GOAL that we struggle for (Philip. 3:12-14) and the reality we are.

You disregard the fact that the NEW CREATION within us is not our entire being and is something we still must "put on". You disregard the fact we are commanded to "walk in the Spirit" which denies we automatically denies that is our CONSTANT state.

You confuse the difference between a command and a promise. We are never promised that we can live above sin but we are commanded to strive against sin.

You fail to recognize that any other GOAL than sinless perfection would be foolish command but the command to strive for that goal does not mean it can be attained here and now but only that it will be attained and nothing NOW is worthy as a goal to "press toward" (Philip. 3:12-14).

The command to "press toward" that mark but failure to obtain that mark here and now does not mean it cannot be attained or will not be attained at some point and therefore simply because it is not attained here and now does not make it a worthless command.

You fail to recognize that the INWARD MAN which has been "CREATED" by God within us is sinless (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10; 1 Jn. 3:9) and it is the seat of desire for sinlessness that cannot desire anything less because it is born of the incorruptible "seed" of God which has been implanted within our being and is growing now under this old sod of fallen flesh but one day will break forth and be manifested in the resurrection with all the fruits in perfect array and then we shall be like Him (1 Jn 3:1-2) but presently we are not like Him as He is but we presently are given the desire to be like him and holiness is presently an ongoing progressive growth (1 Jn. 3:3).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

We would do well to carefully and prayerfully consider personally this passage as well.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Do we think we can sow to the flesh on a daily basis by sinning everyday, and yet not reap the corruption this passage promises to such that soweth to the flesh?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: Hence, you rule out all Spiritual growth in regard to sin.

HP: Hold that thought. That is not true in the least. More later.

 

[12strings]

What a life of sanctification, perfect love, or holiness is, is nothing more or less than a consistent holy walk before God...

-Agreed.

...where sin IF it does occur would be the abnormal, NOT he normal way of ones life, to the point that one sins so little and so quick to repent and to turn from such sin IF in fact it does occur, that it can be rightfully said of such a one, they do not sin.

The verse by the apostle John clearly indicates this in the following verse.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

I think it is a stretch to say that John 3:9-10 CLEARLY SAY what you said in bold above... You said sin is abnormal, John says "he CANNOT SIN." It seems your description does not take the verse far enough, if a literal reading is what we are after.

It seems from both of our readings, that we both accept that "cannot sin" does not actually mean "cannot sin."

John' Macarthur's sermon on this passage stikes what I think is the right approach: He says that some people ignore this verse and say Christians sin all the time and it doesn't matter...others say that christians don't sin...He says "christians DO sin, and it does matter."

The plain truth is, that one cannot remain in good standing before the Lord with unconfessed sins in ones life that they are refusing to repent and to turn from, refusing to trust God to free them from a life of such sin. God never receives glory by the admission of sin when it is not forsaken or repented and turned from. Obedience is what God demands. Obedience is far better than sacrifice or the mere testimony of sinning every day. Love demands obedience, and nothing less will suffice.

-Nothing less will suffice FOR WHAT? salvation? If nothing less than obedience will suffice, then even your bolded view above is LESS than perfect obedience.

This 'so called humility' expressed by so many, that testifies to sinning daily as believers, is an affront to the promised power of God in our lives, which God promises to all believers, to KEEP one from sin and evil, in this present world.

When one testifies to sinning every day, such a testimony is like saying, thanks God, but I would rather have and placate my sin than to depend on You for the daily help to free myself from my selfish actions, i.e., my sins. It is like saying, I love you God, but I love my sin more. It is like telling ones spouse, I love you, but I love to commit adultery more. Such nonsense will not placate ones spouse, and we will not fool or placate God either.

-You are again confusing the issue. We are not telling God that we would rather sin than not sin...we simply see in scriptures and in life that we are weak, and still have sinful tendencies... We are told to GROW in godliness. To pray DAILY for forgiveness of sin. We see examples of sinning believers throughout the Bible. Is there victory, yes. Progressively more victory as we mature and grow throughout our lives...but to claim to be free from sin completely seems to go against scripture and human experience...and even your own view...which makes replying to you confusing.

-Question: Do you, throughout the entirety of each day, Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, & strength...do you love your neighbor as much as you love yourself...do you love your enemies and those who persecute you and say bad things about you...Do you do all that you do with the pure motive of the glory of God?

...if not, are you not breaking God's commands all day long?

 

[Moriah]

Hence, you rule out all Spiritual growth in regard to sin. You simply have a black or white relationship with sin. Either you are consistently sinless or you have sinned and need confession to return to consistent sinlessness. That is not the experience of any of the apostles. Paul near the end of his life and writing under inspiration claimed "I AM" the cheif of sinners not "I WAS" or "SOMETIMES" he is!

It is absolutely ludicrous for you to believe that Apostle Paul is saying that he continues to do things, after Jesus saved him, that qualify him as being the chief of sinners. You make me want to laugh and shake my head.
Paul says he beats his body and makes it his slave so that after he has preached to others, he himself will not be disqualified for the prize. Do you not understand that powerful statement?
Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
1 Peter 4:1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin.
Did you just read what Peter said? Have you suffered with your body until you were done with sin? People preparing for a race exercises and puts more physical exertion and pain into winning a race for an earthly crown than one does to get sin out of their life! They are only boxing the air!
Again, you have no idea what you are talking about when you teach that Apostle Paul is saying he continues to do things that qualify him as the worst of sinners!

 

[DHK]

It is absolutely ludicrous for you to believe that Apostle Paul is saying that he continues to do things, after Jesus saved him, that qualify him as being the chief of sinners. You make me want to laugh and shake my head.
Paul says he beats his body and makes it his slave so that after he has preached to others, he himself will not be disqualified for the prize. Do you not understand that powerful statement?
Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
1 Peter 4:1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin.
Did you just read what Peter said? Have you suffered with your body until you were done with sin? People preparing for a race exercises and puts more physical exertion and pain into winning a race for an earthly crown than one does to get sin out of their life! They are only boxing the air!
Again, you have no idea what you are talking about when you teach that Apostle Paul is saying he continues to do things that qualify him as the worst of sinners!

Can a Christian, such as you claim to be, be a believer and be the enemy of God at the same time?
James says yes to this question, as he writes to believers:

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
--These believers were so caught up in worldly things that they had become the enemies of God. How much do you love the world?

John says something similar:
1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

You and HP claim to be holy. John says if you love the world, the love of the Father is not in you. That is a strong indictment against many if not most Christians today. They don't even have the love of the Father in them. Do you?

 

[Moriah]

1. The continued ability of believers to sin is found throughout scriptures, and is not negated by the warnings of apostasy or false profession, but must be held in tension with it.

There are many examples in the Bible that prove what you say is wrong.
Moses did not get to see the Promised Land because he did not do what God said to do!
The Holy Spirit left Saul in the Old Testament because he did not do what God said to do.
David prayed to God not to take His Spirit from him after he sinned.

Galatians 5:17 - For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

Why do you defend sin as you do? Galatians 5:17 is about not doing the SIN that you would want to since you now have the Holy Spirit to live through.

1 John 1:8 - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (speaking to believers, as is verse 9, and the rest of the book).

That scripture is about being saved! If a person claims they never sinned, and then the truth is not in them---they were never saved! Because we must repent of sinning before we can even be saved. That scripture is not about defending sinning!

David persisted in hiding and escalating his sin with Bathsheba for at least several weeks. Was he not a true follower of God at this time?

David prayed that God would not take His Spirit from him!

Romans 7, Paul speaks in the FIRST PERSON, & THE PRESENT TENSE, and therefore...AS A BELIEVER: 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate....

Paul was speaking of himself when he was under the law. The New Testament is the hidden revealed…we now have a better hope; we now have the way of the Spirit of God.
Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

2. Then sinless view puts a burden on people that they cannot bear, because it tells them that if their testimony is one of current struggle with sin, like that of Paul, or if they seek to obey 1 John 1:8 and not claim to be without sin, they must not be saved.

They cannot bear being sinless? When light shines on evil, we can see how evil it is! One does not want to have anything to do with it. We are to work out our salvation!

3. Acknowledging indwelling sin that is always affecting our thoughts and decisions does not lead to defeat, but frees us to pursue righteousness in the grace of God, rather than under fear of punishment. We are no longer those who seek to establish our own righteousness, but submit to the righteousness of Christ. (Rom. 10:3)

It is NOT our OWN righteousness when we get Jesus’ teachings and obey them! Paul was speaking of the Jews in Romans 10:3, the Jews who made up things on their own to obey, such as washing their hands. They were trying to establish a righteousness of their own.

Galatians 2:16 - yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Works of the law that Paul is speaking about is circumcision, various ceremonial washings, sin offerings…Paul is not speaking of not sinning! Read Romans 8:3-4:
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering,. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Did you see that? “…in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.”

 

[steaver]

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering,. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Did you see that? “…in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.”

Moriah, to declare your own righteousness is sin in God's eyes. You need to understand that you are a sinner saved by grace. You may pride yourself (another sin) in that you do not break the "big ones" but you sin everyday in the fact that you do not live a perfect life of submission 24/7 to the Holy SPirit. Have you been less than perfect with your wife? With your children? With your co-workers, friends, family? Anything less than perfect at anytime during your day is sin.