Is to be Cleansed or Free From All Sin, Sin?

[DHK]

I have already explained 1 John 1:8-10 for you. If you want to speak to me about my God and the scriptures of my beliefs, then try to remember what I have already told you. Stop repeating your beliefs to me when you speak to me about mine.
1 John 1:8-10 is about being saved. It is about repenting of sins so that one could be saved.

First, don't get upset. This is a debate forum.
When a subject comes up that is not settled you can expect it to be debated--even repeatedly. Take TS (Thinkingstuff), for example. The countless times his doctrines come up never end. How many times is he challenged to defend purgatory, the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc. Constantly. He is not complaining about it like you are right now. Just defend your position even if you have before. Not everyone has a photographic memory. Remember that.
Repetition is good for the soul, especially when it is the truth.

Who has claimed sinlessness? Quote exactly and give the location of the quote, or repent for speaking lies.
God says I am perfect and holy. I am perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Every time (like now) that you claim perfect holiness, or perfection and being holy as God is, then you are claiming sinlessness. What else is one to conclude? If I say that and I am wrong, then break into my post and correct it immediately and tell me I am wrong and why. Don't let it slip.

How many times do I have to explain them to you? If you want to debate others on their beliefs, then try to remember what their beliefs are.

Most of the time I do, when they are stated logically, and Biblically--that is, they hold a Biblical position or are in harmony with the Scriptures. But what if your position is not in harmony with the Scriptures? What then? Then you must offer up another explanation. You must work toward the Bible.

Again, 1 John 1:8-10 is about being saved…when Jesus first saves someone. If someone does not believe they are a sinner that needs to repent, then the truth is not in them---which mean they were not saved. Again, and again, it is about being saved.

But this is not true. If it is true you immediately call John unsaved. Was John unsaved when he wrote this book.
First, John uses the pronoun "we" throughout the book. That means he is including himself. "If we say we have no sin..." John includes himself. He is not unsaved.

Second, John is writing to believers. The verse between 8 and 10, verse 9 is obviously written to Christians. "If WE confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive US our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Again, written to Christians, we must come daily to the Lord and confess our sins to maintain a holy walk with Christ.

The verse after verse 10 says this:
My little children I write unto you that you sin not.
"My little children" is always addressed to the saved, and never the unsaved. The entire epistle is written to the saved. There is not one verse in the epistle that is addressed to the unsaved. John is written and is writing to Christians, not unbelievers.

There is nothing in this passage about being saved; it is about our walk with Christ, our fellowship with Christ. One of the key verses is in verse 7

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
--Walk in the light.
--Fellowship with one another.
--This chapter is about our Christian walk and our fellowship both with one and other and with Christ. It is not about salvation.

 

[Moriah]

First, don't get upset. This is a debate forum.When a subject comes up that is not settled you can expect it to be debated--even repeatedly.
Of course, do you think that you are the only one who knows that?
Take TS (Thinkingstuff), for example. The countless times his doctrines come up never end. How many times is he challenged to defend purgatory, the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc. Constantly. He is not complaining about it like you are right now. Just defend your position even if you have before. Not everyone has a photographic memory. Remember that.
Repetition is good for the soul, especially when it is the truth.

Do not tell me when or not to by upset, nor insinuate I am when I am not. Treat others the way you would like to be treated. You do not need to give me all this supposed well-meaning advice.

Every time (like now) that you claim perfect holiness, or perfection and being holy as God is,

I told you what God says that I am. I gave you many scriptures where God says that I am perfect, and holy. Tell me why you do not accept God’s Word on this. You need to think about that for yourself, and for proper debating. I gave you scripture that God says I am perfect and holy, and you do not accept it.
Now, as for you adding the part that I said I am “holy as God is,” you are a person who does not stay with the Truth, you add, you make up things that others did not say. That is what liars do, that is bearing false witness, and that is slander. When you are in a debate and add things that others did not say, and never said anywhere else on the board, then you cause great confusion, because new readers might actually believe you.

then you are claiming sinlessness. What else is one to conclude? If I say that and I am wrong, then break into my post and correct it immediately and tell me I am wrong and why. Don't let it slip.

I have told you many times when you speak falseness. Even so, do not hold others responsible for when you slip up. Stay with what people actually do say or have said elsewhere. It is almost as if you just cannot help yourself, see for yourself what you just said here, “then you are claiming sinlessness.” Do not tell me what I am claiming unless you have read it plainly yourself. As for sinlessness, I know this, that I am not the sinner you have falsely accused me of being. You have accused me of all sorts of sins that I do not do. You have said, “Your members (the parts of your body) are instruments of unrighteousness unto sin” You have said that to me and many other lies.
It is not normal for Christians to sin, as you have said.

Most of the time I do, when they are stated logically, and Biblically--that is, they hold a Biblical position or are in harmony with the Scriptures. But what if your position is not in harmony with the Scriptures? What then? Then you must offer up another explanation. You must work toward the Bible.

I only speak what the Bible says. You are the one who speaks of what a religion has taught you.

But this is not true. If it is true you immediately call John unsaved. Was John unsaved when he wrote this book.

You see, you are slipping again. I do not call John unsaved. If you think that my explanation makes John unsaved, then say it like that. My explanation does not make John unsaved, because John is saying IF. John is telling others that if we…John is not saying, “I have never sinned.”

First, John uses the pronoun "we" throughout the book. That means he is including himself. "If we say we have no sin..." John includes himself. He is not unsaved. Second, John is writing to believers. The verse between 8 and 10, verse 9 is obviously written to Christians. "If WE confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive US our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Again, written to Christians, we must come daily to the Lord and confess our sins to maintain a holy walk with Christ.

John does not say, “I have never sinned.” Nor have you ever heard me say that, or HP. You make up things that we have not said.
John is saying that if we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin.
YOU are the one who claims that sinning is natural for Christians. You are the one who teaches that death will bring about sinlessness. Yet, John says if we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
John says, “if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” If the truth is not in someone, were they ever saved then? Was the truth ever in them? Did they lose the truth that was in them? Either way I can accept this scripture, but either way you cannot accept this scripture, because you believe a person cannot lose their salvation. So, for your beliefs of OSAS, then it would be better for you to say that John meant WHEN A PERSON IS SAVED. Again, for me it is either before, or during, it does not matter, for John continues to say, “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But IF anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense---Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
You see, now you must reconsider your beliefs of once saved always saved. Either way for me, is no difference, for I teach one must always repent of sins.

The verse after verse 10 says this:
My little children I write unto you that you sin not.
"My little children" is always addressed to the saved, and never the unsaved. The entire epistle is written to the saved. There is not one verse in the epistle that is addressed to the unsaved. John is written and is writing to Christians, not unbelievers.

John also says that is we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

There is nothing in this passage about being saved; it is about our walk with Christ, our fellowship with Christ. One of the key verses is in verse 7

You are the one who says that Christians sin all day and every day, but John says if we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
--Walk in the light.
--Fellowship with one another.
--This chapter is about our Christian walk and our fellowship both with one and other and with Christ. It is not about salvation.

Being saved IS about salvation. John says he writes this so that you will not sin. BUT IF anybody does sin… We know that we have COME TO KNOW HIM IF WE OBEY HIS COMMANDS.
If a person has never obeyed Jesus, were they ever saved? John says, “The man who say, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar,” Tell me, does that sound like a person was ever saved? If you are to convince me that the man was saved, then this is a great scripture to prove a person can lose their salvation. Again, either way, I believe what John says. This is not so with you, because you believe in OSAS.

 

[steaver]

Moriah, let's just simply clear this all up. We have been saying that we believe you are suggesting sinlessness. An answer to a simple question will clear it up.

Moriah, do you sin?

 

[Moriah]

Moriah, let's just simply clear this all up. We have been saying that we believe you are suggesting sinlessness. An answer to a simple question will clear it up.

Moriah, do you sin?

I do not owe this the dignity of any answer.

 

[steaver]

I do not owe this the dignity of any answer.

That makes no sense. If you believe you have been misrepresented on the sinless issue then simply answer the question and you will be clear and on the record.

 

[DHK]

Do not tell me when or not to by upset, nor insinuate I am when I am not. Treat others the way you would like to be treated. You do not need to give me all this supposed well-meaning advice.

Giving people well-meaning advice is what I do. It is showing a person respect.

I told you what God says that I am. I gave you many scriptures where God says that I am perfect, and holy.

TS gives me many Scriptures too. He gives me 1Cor.3:12-15 and says it teaches about Purgatory. Is that your position?
You give me 1John 1:8,10 and tell me it is speaking about the unsaved and salvation. It is not.
So the problem is that the Scriptures you give are not not interpreted with what the rest of the Bible teaches. Your interpretation of them is wrong.

Tell me why you do not accept God’s Word on this.

I accept God's Word--I accept all of God's Word, but I don't accept your interpretation of God's Word.
Example: (and only an example)
The J.W. interprets certain passages to interpret that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel. Of course I don't agree with that. It is heresy. As I don't agree with their interpretation on the passages they use, I don't agree with the way you are interpreting the Bible either because it does not harmonize with the rest of Scripture. The same principle applies.

You need to think about that for yourself, and for proper debating. I gave you scripture that God says I am perfect and holy, and you do not accept it.

You simply said, "The Bible says.." What verse are you referring to? Quote it. The explain how it says that you are perfect and holy. Does it speak of perfect and holy positionally or practically or both? Does perfect mean sinless? Or does it simply mean complete or mature? Give the verse and define and explain the terms and the verse. Just don't say "The Bible says..." and leave it at that.

Now, as for you adding the part that I said I am “holy as God is,” you are a person who does not stay with the Truth, you add, you make up things that others did not say.

That is because you didn't quote the Scripture and explain what the Scripture meant. You are the one that is leaving a hole here. That hole needs to be filled. How holy are you? Are you as holy as Lot (whom God declared to be holy or righteous), and yet still managed to offer his two virgin daughters to a mob of homosexuals to be abused by them all night long. Is that what you mean as holy? Or, are you as holy as Biblicist or HP? Or are you as holy as God Almighty, the Creator of the universe? What do you mean by holy? How holy are you??

That is what liars do, that is bearing false witness, and that is slander.

Are you accusing me of this? Where? Document it.

When you are in a debate and add things that others did not say, and never said anywhere else on the board, then you cause great confusion, because new readers might actually believe you.

I trust people believe me, because I endeavor to speak the truth. When you speak half the truth or a half truth, what is the other half? A lie, right?
A half truth is a lie because it isn't the complete truth. But you don't tell the complete truth and leave many of us guessing. In fact you were very rude to Steaver when he asked you recently:

"Simply clear it up for us Moriah, Are you sinless?"
--A yes or no question that you would not answer, but only give a rude ungodly answer to Steaver? And you are the one speaking of new readers believing what is written here. You ought to be ashamed of what is being written here.

I have told you many times when you speak falseness.

A false allegation because you disagree with me. You are unable to carry on an intelligent debate so you post offensively instead??

Even so, do not hold others responsible for when you slip up. Stay with what people actually do say or have said elsewhere. It is almost as if you just cannot help yourself, see for yourself what you just said here, “then you are claiming sinlessness.”

You have claimed sinlessness. If you haven't come out and tell us plainly. You just claimed perfection and holiness. What would you have the reader conclude when you tell them you are perfect, if not sinless? You don't see any logic here??

Do not tell me what I am claiming unless you have read it plainly yourself. As for sinlessness, I know this, that I am not the sinner you have falsely accused me of being.

So are you a sinner or are you not a sinner. I accuse you of being a sinner for the Bible says that we are all sinners. It is not I that accuse you, but God.

You have accused me of all sorts of sins that I do not do. You have said, “Your members (the parts of your body) are instruments of unrighteousness unto sin” You have said that to me and many other lies.
It is not normal for Christians to sin, as you have said.

Yes, I have said that. And it is true, because you have an old nature that has not yet been eradicated, and won't be until Christ comes again. Just like every one of us. You are not perfect; you are not sinless. You are sinner, and you often yield your members, like the fingers at your keyboard, as instruments of unrighteousness, to post the vile things that you post. And that is sin. If you would like me to gather some of the horrid things that you have posted against Biblicist I can do that as evidence for what I am saying. Your thoughts and words are recorded on this board. And they condemn you as a sinner.

I only speak what the Bible says. You are the one who speaks of what a religion has taught you.

The Bible says all have sinned. It says don't yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin. But you have done that on this board in the things you have posted, haven't you? You do not speak only what the Bible speaks. The Bible doesn't call people names.

You see, you are slipping again. I do not call John unsaved. If you think that my explanation makes John unsaved, then say it like that. My explanation does not make John unsaved, because John is saying IF. John is telling others that if we…John is not saying, “I have never sinned.”

What does John say:
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
--You imply that you are sinless.
John says "If WE say that WE have not sinned.
John says, If JOHN and MORIAH say that JOHN and MORIAH have not sinned, then John and Moriah make Christ a liar, and His word is not in John and Moriah.
--We know that is not true for the Apostle John. Is it true for you?

John does not say, “I have never sinned.” Nor have you ever heard me say that, or HP. You make up things that we have not said.

John makes a hypothetical statement. It is a conjecture. It begins with IF.
John says "IF we say we have not sinned..."
You infer that you have not sinned.

 

[DHK]

John is saying that if we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin.

That is what he says in verse seven.

YOU are the one who claims that sinning is natural for Christians. You are the one who teaches that death will bring about sinlessness.

I am not sure what you are referring to. It will be pretty hard to sin once your dead.

Yet, John says if we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

As a general rule.

John says, “if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” If the truth is not in someone, were they ever saved then? Was the truth ever in them? Did they lose the truth that was in them? Either way I can accept this scripture, but either way you cannot accept this scripture, because you believe a person cannot lose their salvation.

No, If a person claims to be without sin, they are foolishly deceived in their theology. Read verses 8 and 10, and see what the consequences are for those who claim sinlessness. Then think seriously about it.

So, for your beliefs of OSAS, then it would be better for you to say that John meant WHEN A PERSON IS SAVED.

John meant what he said. If you are claiming sinlessness you are putting into question the very integrity of Jesus Christ, for he alone is sinless.
For me, the person who makes such a claim, it is that person's salvation that I would question. For as the Scripture states--he makes Jesus Christ a liar. He doesn't understand salvation.

Again, for me it is either before, or during, it does not matter, for John continues to say, “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But IF anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense---Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
You see, now you must reconsider your beliefs of once saved always saved. Either way for me, is no difference, for I teach one must always repent of sins.

Jesus is talking to believers. He is speaking about fellowship. When we sin we confess our sins (1:9) and our relationship is restored and we move on. We don't lose our salvation. However, according to your theology, if you sin, have a sudden heart attack before you have a chance to repent, you have no assurance, and will end up in hell for God will not allow any defiled thing into heaven, and you didn't have a chance to repent. Correct?

John also says that is we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

There are times when you don't walk in the light and don't live by the truth. Say there are not, and you have just lied.

You are the one who says that Christians sin all day and every day, but John says if we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

That is because I am able to go to God every day and confess my sins, as John says in 1:9. How about you? Or are you sinless and don't have any sins to confess?

Being saved IS about salvation. John says he writes this so that you will not sin. BUT IF anybody does sin… We know that we have COME TO KNOW HIM IF WE OBEY HIS COMMANDS.

You have lied by twisting the Scripture and deleting part of it. That is not what the Scripture says.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

If a person has never obeyed Jesus, were they ever saved? John says, “The man who say, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar,” Tell me, does that sound like a person was ever saved?

Does it sound like a save person would ever pervert the Word like you just did? Salvation is not conditional on obedience. It is Christ that gives salvation. One is justified freely by faith.

If you are to convince me that the man was saved, then this is a great scripture to prove a person can lose their salvation. Again, either way, I believe what John says. This is not so with you, because you believe in OSAS.

I believe the Bible, not you. I believe that Jesus saves, not you.

 

[Yeshua1]

Consider carefully these powerful and beautiful words of Jesus Christ.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

Did you hear that? He who loves Jesus is the one who obeys him. God will love those who love Jesus, and Jesus will love him too, AND SHOW HIMSELF TO HIM. You do not even know Jesus if you do not obey him!

1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

Jesus says you are a liar if you say you know him but do not do what he commands.

1 John 2:4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

We do not even remain in Jesus love unless we obey his commands. Just as Jesus remains in his Father’s love.

John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Jesus will give us the Holy Spirit when we obey his teachings.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

1 John 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

You worry about being able to keep Jesus’ commandments without the Holy Spirit, but Jesus says the forceful take it by storm. Jesus says not to give up. I can give you scriptures for those to, if you are interested.
God’s commands are not burdensome, they are easy, and they are light. 1 John 5:3, and Matthew 11:30.

The Holy Spirit is given to them who place faith in jesus, that is ONLY command God requires to have us saved and seled with the Holy Spirit of promise!

its not know the commands of God, obey, and God gives you the Holy Spirit, but believe and receive Him!

 

[Moriah]

The Holy Spirit is given to them who place faith in jesus, that is ONLY command God requires to have us saved and seled with the Holy Spirit of promise!

its not know the commands of God, obey, and God gives you the Holy Spirit, but believe and receive Him!

So then, why did Jesus say this?
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

 

[The Biblicist]

I gave you many scriptures where God says that I am perfect, and holy.

Heb. 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

The context is about GROWING UP to MATURITY. He describes the IMMATURE "babe" in verse 13 and the "full age" or MATURE person in verse 14. The very same Greek term translated "full age" in verse 15 is immediately used again in the very next verse but translated "perfection."

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age,[[τελειοτης] even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;[τελειοτης] not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

The second use of it is something that the writer includes himself "let US" as something not yet attained but rather sees as something he presses toward "let us go on unto."

Paul uses the very same exact term in the very same two ways in Phillippians 3:12-15 but in reverse order as found in Hebrews. He denies he has attained sinless perfection but is pressing toward that mark (vv. 12-14) and yet claims to be spiritually mature (v. 15):

12 [I]Not as though I had already attained, either were already [/I]perfect: [τελειοω] but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect,[τελειος] be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

It is pretty apparent that Paul denies he has attained the first type of "perfect" in verses 12-14 whereas he has attained the second type of "perfect" in verse 15 proving they are not one and the same thing.

Moriah does not understand the distinction between the two, thus making them one and the same.

 

[Moriah]

Heb. 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

The context is about GROWING UP to MATURITY. He describes the IMMATURE "babe" in verse 13 and the "full age" or MATURE person in verse 14. The very same Greek term translated "full age" in verse 15 is immediately used again in the very next verse but translated "perfection."

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age,[[τελειοτης] even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;[τελειοτης] not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

The second use of it is something that the writer includes himself "let US" as something not yet attained but rather sees as something he presses toward "let us go on unto."

Paul uses the very same exact term in the very same two ways in Phillippians 3:12-15 but in reverse order as found in Hebrews. He denies he has attained sinless perfection but is pressing toward that mark (vv. 12-14) and yet claims to be spiritually mature (v. 15):

12 [I]Not as though I had already attained, either were already [/I]perfect: [τελειοω] but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect,[τελειος] be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

It is pretty apparent that Paul denies he has attained the first type of "perfect" in verses 12-14 whereas he has attained the second type of "perfect" in verse 15 proving they are not one and the same thing.

.

You see what you do…you just ignore God’s Word and go onto other scriptures that you think will nullify what God says! What an evil maneuver.
Christians are perfect and holy.

It seems there is a false humbleness in some who call themselves Christian, and they show this false humbleness when they protest being called a saint or holy. However, what do the scriptures say?

Hebrews 10:10 and by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:13 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Hebrews 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

John 17:19 John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.

 

[savedbymercy]

hp

If sinlessness is sin, it is a sin for Christ to cleanse one from all sin?

It depends upon what you mean. Jesus Christ has legally cleansed all for whom He died from all sin as it pertains to their Justification before God, no sin can be charged against them for condemnation.

But the reality of the matter is even though that is True, the Believer still is connected to the flesh, and in a real sense he is still that person who he is by his first birth of the flesh, and to deny that is sin and delusion 1 Jn 1:8

If we[Believers] say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The Truth not in us means we are unsaved liars !

Because the Truth is in every believer !

 

[The Biblicist]

You see what you do…you just ignore God’s Word and go onto other scriptures that you think will nullify what God says! What an evil maneuver.
Christians are perfect and holy.

It seems there is a false humbleness in some who call themselves Christian, and they show this false humbleness when they protest being called a saint or holy. However, what do the scriptures say?

Hebrews 10:10 and by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:13 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Hebrews 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

John 17:19 John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.

I can deal with every one of these texts in their context but you can't deal with the Biblical evidence I gave you.

Hebrews 10:1-17 deals with the REPRESENTAIVE person of JEsus Christ as typified under the law through types (Heb. 10:1-4). The types did not literally remove sin from anyone under the law because they were types or simply a "shadow" of Jesus Christ who was to come.

Christ came as the perfect sacrifice (Heb. 10:5-9) and High Preist (Heb. 10:9-14) offering up himself for the sanctification of His people. In his REPRESENTATIVE act (also described in Romans 5:12-19) that single act sanctified or set apart his people once for all under the New Covenant (Heb. 10:15-17).

Here is your problem! It was done by ONE man and it was done by ONE act and it was done ONCE FOR ALL and it was done FOR or IN BEHALF of His people. It is talking about what Christ FURNISHED FOR HIS PEOPLE not what His people do for Christ.

What His people do for him is not described until Hebrews 10:19.

We are completely sanctified, glorified, justified, saved, redeemed in the PERSON of Christ LEGALLY and POSITIONALLY before God in heaven but we are not completely sanctified, glorified, justified, saved, redeemed in our own person on earth. That is why we are urged to grow in sanctification in Hebrews 5:12-6:1; Heb. 10:19-25.

You cannot distinguish between what Christ accomplished FOR US in his own person and what is accomplished IN US by Christ.

You are misapplying these scriptures as they do not have anything to do with our own PERSON but with the PERSON of Christ and what He accomplished FOR US not about our own person and what we accomplish for Christ. However, it does no good to tell you, or explain it because you have no spiritual ears or eyes to see a big red barn if it were placed squarely right in your nose!

 

[Yeshua1]

hp



It depends upon what you mean. Jesus Christ has legally cleansed all for whom He died from all sin as it pertains to their Justification before God, no sin can be charged against them for condemnation.

But the reality of the matter is even though that is True, the Believer still is connected to the flesh, and in a real sense he is still that person who he is by his first birth of the flesh, and to deny that is sin and delusion 1 Jn 1:8

If we[Believers] say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The Truth not in us means we are unsaved liars !

Because the Truth is in every believer !

the truth is that jesus died for sinners such as you and me, and that by faith alone/grace alone we are saved by God!