Is Wayne Grudem Right?

[utilyan]

In the creation of the free will in Adam, God gave permission for the choice of evil (or otherwise no choice exists) and thus permission for evil to exist. However, in the creation of free will he also ordained that Adam would he held accountable for his choice as well. With the execution of evil as a consequence of original sin God restrains what will not ultimately be the good of his people (Rom. 8:28) or will not ultimately be made to glorify his name (Psa. 76:10):

Ps 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise you: the remainder of wrath shall you restrain.

So yes, God controls evil as he controls Satan (Job 1-2). Fallen man cannot justly complain about God's wise administration over evil simply because fallen man deserves more than what God permits and God has the full right to restrain and allow evil as he sees fit. He uses it to punish the ungodly and chasten the righteous. Indeed, he uses it in the life of the child of God to build up resistance to sin as sin is abrasive to the inward new man and many times we are allowed to fall into sin and its consequences in order to build up resistance that will eventually overcome it in our lives.

God owes no man mercy or grace but only owes man wrath due to sin. However, his graciousness is seen in his restraint and wise administration of sin and its consequences.

You might be speeding to the hospital with a loved one who needs medical help.

You might indeed get a speeding ticket.

Does that automatically mean you DESERVE a speeding ticket?


Where God says all mankind DESERVES HELL. Bible Verse, now.

I don't care for a person's opinion, Show it to me straight from God's mouth.

God can be upset with everyone, not pleased with anyone, very angry, he can personally punish one, two, three, all......... Show me straight from God's mouth, bible verse, ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL.

And is it really all.....or just all elect?

 

[MennoSota]

You might be speeding to the hospital with a loved one who needs medical help.

You might indeed get a speeding ticket.

Does that automatically mean you DESERVE a speeding ticket?


Where God says all mankind DESERVES HELL. Bible Verse, now.

I don't care for a person's opinion, Show it to me straight from God's mouth.

God can be upset with everyone, not pleased with anyone, very angry, he can personally punish one, two, three, all......... Show me straight from God's mouth, bible verse, ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL.

And is it really all.....or just all elect?

Do you understand what the law is created for?

You are making an argument for relativism and the ends justifying the means. Do you really think the law cares about your argument for why you broke the law? It still condemns you.
What you need is a pardon. How does God, the judge, pardon law breakers, utilyan?

You want God to pardon without any payment being rendered. Show me in the Bible where pardon is given without any payment.

 

[Yeshua1]

You might be speeding to the hospital with a loved one who needs medical help.

You might indeed get a speeding ticket.

Does that automatically mean you DESERVE a speeding ticket?


Where God says all mankind DESERVES HELL. Bible Verse, now.

I don't care for a person's opinion, Show it to me straight from God's mouth.

God can be upset with everyone, not pleased with anyone, very angry, he can personally punish one, two, three, all......... Show me straight from God's mouth, bible verse, ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL.

And is it really all.....or just all elect?

All who have sinned are under the wrath of God, and that will be in the end worked out at the final judgement and hell...

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Where God says all mankind DESERVES HELL. Bible Verse, now.

I don't care for a person's opinion, Show it to me straight from God's mouth.

God can be upset with everyone, not pleased with anyone, very angry, he can personally punish one, two, three, all......... Show me straight from God's mouth, bible verse, ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL.

Three texts from the Psalms. Just join the dots.
Psalm 7:11. 'God is a just judge, and God is angry with sinners every day.'
Psalm 9:17. 'The wicked shall be turned into hell.'
Psalm 14:2-3, 'The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one.'

 

[utilyan]

Do you understand what the law is created for?

You are making an argument for relativism and the ends justifying the means. Do you really think the law cares about your argument for why you broke the law? It still condemns you.
What you need is a pardon. How does God, the judge, pardon law breakers, utilyan?

You want God to pardon without any payment being rendered. Show me in the Bible where pardon is given without any payment.

I want justice, your making a strawman.

Example of pardon given by God no payment:

The woman caught in act of adultery. She doesn't even apologize, Jesus drops the whole thing.

The Law was created FOR MANKIND. God doesn't need laws or rules, YOU DO. The Law is solely for man's benefit.

God is just fine without law.

 

[utilyan]

Three texts from the Psalms. Just join the dots.
Psalm 7:11. 'God is a just judge, and God is angry with sinners every day.'
Psalm 9:17. 'The wicked shall be turned into hell.'
Psalm 14:2-3, 'The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one.'

God is just and angry with sinners = GOD SAYS ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL ? NO.

'The wicked shall be turned into hell.'= God says all mankind deserves hell? NO.

"They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one." = GOD SAYS ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL? NO?


You think you are GOD? Who the heck are you to JUDGE and decide who deserves what?


You say --> GOD SAYS in the bible ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL.

Show me the VERSE RIGHT NOW!


You are trying to pass your own sense of judgement on others.

You are not God. Putting words and judgments into God's mouth is a sin.

Show me where he clearly states ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Show me where he clearly states ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL.

I showed you; it's as clear and easy as 1-2-3, but you don't believe God and if anyone on this board took any notice of you, which fortunately no one does, you would be guilty of sending them to hell with a pocket-full of false promises..
'They have also healed the wound of My people slightly, saying, "Peace! Peace!" When there is no peace' (Jeremiah 6:14).

 

[JonC]

"God "ordains" that we carry out evil deeds, and then after following His "ordination", He holds us accountable? Wow, if this is not making God the "author" of sin, then I don't know what it means. for sure the Holy Bible does NOT teach this anywhere. But for those who hold that God has "decreed everything that comes to pass", this is what they would have to teach.

This looks like heresy to me!

I don't think that he goes too far. Until fairly recently it would have been difficult to find a Protestant theologian orthodox in his views who did not believe that God ordained all that occurs. In fact, the major difference between Arminianism and Calvinism is the former typically (classic Arminianism, anyway) held God ordained all while Calvinists often insisted God decreed all. The idea that God did not at a minimum ordain all that comes to pass is, IMHO, a severe theological deficit.

As an illustration that I'll stick with as one example in Scripture is enough (and evidence that God does indeed ordain....at a minimum....the evil actions that men carry out without authoring evil itself) we can simply view Peter's sermon in Acts. Peter tells the Jews that their actions were evil but that this was an evil born of ignorance and not unforgivable. At the same time Peter tells them that Jesus' death by their hands was God's design. God, at a very minimum, ordained that Jesus would be beaten and crucified by the men who beat and crucified him. This was not merely God making use of those evil actions, but His plan of redemption.

I'm inclined more toward's Grudem's view. I believe that the Cross was entirely God's work (decreed by God) yet without making God the author of evil (of rejecting and crucifying Christ). I do not believe that there is a "the Father offered His Son" vs. "Jesus lay down His life" vs. "men rejected and crucified Christ" dichotomy. I believe all three are true.

 

[MennoSota]

I want justice, your making a strawman.

Example of pardon given by God no payment:

The woman caught in act of adultery. She doesn't even apologize, Jesus drops the whole thing.

The Law was created FOR MANKIND. God doesn't need laws or rules, YOU DO. The Law is solely for man's benefit.

God is just fine without law.

If you want justice then you want the enforcement of the law.

What you have argued is for God to not be just. You have argued that there are times that the ends justify the means and God should take that into consideration as our judge. You are saying that God should not be just in all situations. You want a God that is unjust in some situations and just in others. You want a god made in your image.

The woman caught in adultery is shown grace. There is a pardon give to her. The fact that she doesn't apologize is consistent with how God works. God's grace is freely given, apart from our actions. Your choice of the woman caught in adultery illustrates this wonderfully.

 

[percho]

I don't think that he goes too far. Until fairly recently it would have been difficult to find a Protestant theologian orthodox in his views who did not believe that God ordained all that occurs. In fact, the major difference between Arminianism and Calvinism is the former typically (classic Arminianism, anyway) held God ordained all while Calvinists often insisted God decreed all. The idea that God did not at a minimum ordain all that comes to pass is, IMHO, a severe theological deficit.

As an illustration that I'll stick with as one example in Scripture is enough (and evidence that God does indeed ordain....at a minimum....the evil actions that men carry out without authoring evil itself) we can simply view Peter's sermon in Acts. Peter tells the Jews that their actions were evil but that this was an evil born of ignorance and not unforgivable. At the same time Peter tells them that Jesus' death by their hands was God's design. God, at a very minimum, ordained that Jesus would be beaten and crucified by the men who beat and crucified him. This was not merely God making use of those evil actions, but His plan of redemption.

I'm inclined more toward's Grudem's view. I believe that the Cross was entirely God's work (decreed by God) yet without making God the author of evil (of rejecting and crucifying Christ). I do not believe that there is a "the Father offered His Son" vs. "Jesus lay down His life" vs. "men rejected and crucified Christ" dichotomy. I believe all three are true.

Makes me thing of the brothers of Joseph. They meant it for evil but God for good in selling him.

 

[Aaron]

God is just and angry with sinners = GOD SAYS ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL ? NO.

'The wicked shall be turned into hell.'= God says all mankind deserves hell? NO.

"They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one." = GOD SAYS ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL? NO?


You think you are GOD? Who the heck are you to JUDGE and decide who deserves what?


You say --> GOD SAYS in the bible ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL.

Show me the VERSE RIGHT NOW!


You are trying to pass your own sense of judgement on others.

You are not God. Putting words and judgments into God's mouth is a sin.

Show me where he clearly states ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL.

Are you saying YOU don't deserve hell?

 

[Aaron]

"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331. emphasis mine)

God "ordains" that we carry out evil deeds, and then after following His "ordination", He holds us accountable? Wow, if this is not making God the "author" of sin, then I don't know what it means. for sure the Holy Bible does NOT teach this anywhere. But for those who hold that God has "decreed everything that comes to pass", this is what they would have to teach.

This looks like heresy to me!

I always have to go back to Col. 1:16 that reminds us that all things were created by and FOR the Son, Who earned His Name in Heaven by the work He did on this earth on the Cross.

You wanna talk mysteries?

God didn't create the earth for Adam and Eve. It was never the plan that humanity live forever romping naked over benign, unravaged and uncursed ground in a pestilence free garden. The plan was always the Cross.

And when you keep that in view, you realize that none of this was created for you either, but you too were created for Christ, and are part of the plan of the Cross, whether you be the scoffer or the penitent.

 

[utilyan]

If you want justice then you want the enforcement of the law.

What you have argued is for God to not be just. You have argued that there are times that the ends justify the means and God should take that into consideration as our judge. You are saying that God should not be just in all situations. You want a God that is unjust in some situations and just in others. You want a god made in your image.

The woman caught in adultery is shown grace. There is a pardon give to her. The fact that she doesn't apologize is consistent with how God works. God's grace is freely given, apart from our actions. Your choice of the woman caught in adultery illustrates this wonderfully.

"enforcement of the law" = she should be stoned as law says.

This problem is between you and Jesus.

Read closely there is NO PARDON given to her, because NO one is there to condemn.

Had you been there you would insist to stone her! Cause under your theology she is already CONDEMNED as TOTALLY DEPRAVED.

In fact the UNCONDEMNED state does not exist in theology, You even sincerely believe "SHE DESERVES HELL" when in fact she doesn't even deserve to be stoned!

Ask yourself does she deserve to be stoned? Jesus was against your attitude from the beginning!

 

[utilyan]

Are you saying YOU don't deserve hell?

My judgement on myself? Doesn't mean anything. Hey I can claim I deserve every hell possible. That doesn't make it final.

God alone makes the judgement and he gave a WORD that is JESUS CHRIST.

John 3

17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

God has made his statement, yours is ink and paper, God's word is Jesus Christ. He said I deserve Jesus Christ and I got Jesus Christ to prove it.


I dare you to walk up to me with your stones of "HE DESERVES HELL" bring them to Christ right now. I don't even deserve lip from you.

 

[MennoSota]

"enforcement of the law" = she should be stoned as law says.

This problem is between you and Jesus.

Read closely there is NO PARDON given to her, because NO one is there to condemn.

Had you been there you would insist to stone her! Cause under your theology she is already CONDEMNED as TOTALLY DEPRAVED.

In fact the UNCONDEMNED state does not exist in theology, You even sincerely believe "SHE DESERVES HELL" when in fact she doesn't even deserve to be stoned!

Ask yourself does she deserve to be stoned? Jesus was against your attitude from the beginning!

Grace was shown to her by God himself. God was there to condemn her, but God pardoned her. Only God can forgive sins as the scribes and Pharisees rightfully understood.
God show her grace. She could ask for nothing greater.
There is no problem between me and Yeshua. He is the one who pardoned me when I deserve damnation. He is the one who pardoned the woman caught in adultery.

 

[MennoSota]

My judgement on myself? Doesn't mean anything. Hey I can claim I deserve every hell possible. That doesn't make it final.

God alone makes the judgement and he gave a WORD that is JESUS CHRIST.

John 3

17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

God has made his statement, yours is ink and paper, God's word is Jesus Christ. He said I deserve Jesus Christ and I got Jesus Christ to prove it.


I dare you to walk up to me with your stones of "HE DESERVES HELL" bring them to Christ right now. I don't even deserve lip from you.

You are clearly a universalist, utilyan. For you, Yeshua's sacrifice was in vain.

 

[Aaron]

My judgement on myself? Doesn't mean anything. Hey I can claim I deserve every hell possible. That doesn't make it final.

God alone makes the judgement and he gave a WORD that is JESUS CHRIST.

John 3

17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

God has made his statement, yours is ink and paper, God's word is Jesus Christ. He said I deserve Jesus Christ and I got Jesus Christ to prove it.


I dare you to walk up to me with your stones of "HE DESERVES HELL" bring them to Christ right now. I don't even deserve lip from you.

LOL. If you knew the law, you'd tremble. You're just a vain and blustery windbag.

Mods, really? This guy is not preaching any Gospel at all. Can 'im.

 

[utilyan]

You are clearly a universalist, utilyan. For you, Yeshua's sacrifice was in vain.

Folks go to hell. I am not universalist. What you are doing is a common accusation put on all non-calvinist.

 

[utilyan]

LOL. If you knew the law, you'd tremble. You're just a vain and blustery windbag.

Mods, really? This guy is not preaching any Gospel at all. Can 'im.

Aaron I'm not going to return insults, I'm christian. I would never ignore or shut you off either because If it wasn't by God's grace I'd be in your shoes.

I stated bible verse. You have not shown a bible verse that is GOD's PROCLAMATION that all mankind deserves hell.

Its a enlightening moment of humility when a person believes they deserve hell for what they do and face up responsibility to God. Yes that is a sweet turning point, when some folks have to hit rock bottom.

HOWEVER, It would be out of my place to put WORDS into GOD's MOUTH, and state that all mankind deserves hell.

#1 Jesus Christ is in that number. At least fix your error "ALL MANKIND EXCEPT JESUS deserves HELL".

I don't think you believe Jesus Christ deserves hell.

 

[MennoSota]

[quoted snipped comment removed] I am not universalist. What you are doing is a common accusation put on all non-calvinist.

You contradict yourself. At one moment you're saying God does not damn people to hell. Now you say He does. Make up your mind, utilyan. You're confused and don't even know what you believe. You're like a wave tossed by the wind. I can't take your personal contradictions seriously. You have no clue what you believe.