AndyMartin
Active Member
As I have said, there is a big difference between "permitting" and "causing"
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is Wayne Grudem Right?
- Thread starter AndyMartin
- Start date
- Status
As I have said, there is a big difference between "permitting" and "causing"
There is a word for that. It is called blasphemy.
Wrong again. God does not ordain sin.
Wrong again. Evil did not originate with God.
Wrong yet again. And more blasphemy.
AndyMartin
Active Member
Why you arguing with me? This is what Grudem and Calvinism teaches!!! Read the start!
AndyMartin
Active Member
THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH (1646)
"Our first parents, begin seduced by the subtlety and temptations of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory." (Chapter 6)
So, it PLEASED God to permit Adam and Eve to sin against Him by disobeying Him, and then He punishes them!
God "ORDERED" that they sinned!!!
"Pleased" = "Feeling or showing pleasure and satisfaction, especially at an event or a situation" (Oxford Dictionary)
The meaning of "please" in 1586 was, "to be agreeable, to give pleasure". Which would have been the meaning at the time this Confession was made!
SNIP
"Our first parents, begin seduced by the subtlety and temptations of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory." (Chapter 6)
So, it PLEASED God to permit Adam and Eve to sin against Him by disobeying Him, and then He punishes them!
God "ORDERED" that they sinned!!!
"Pleased" = "Feeling or showing pleasure and satisfaction, especially at an event or a situation" (Oxford Dictionary)
The meaning of "please" in 1586 was, "to be agreeable, to give pleasure". Which would have been the meaning at the time this Confession was made!
SNIP
Last edited by a moderator:
I am arguing with you because you falsely state, "This is what . . . Calvinism teaches!!!"
That is a shameful falsehood.
AndyMartin
Active Member
My friend, how can what I have said be "a shameful falsehood" when I am quoting the ACTUAL WORDS? I don't understand you Calvinists, you keep on defending even the undefendable, rather than admit that there ARE ERRORS in the system that you follow. And please don't tell me that you follow on the Bible, because the 5 points are NOT from there, except the 5th!
You are not quoting my actual words. In fact you are not quoting the actual words of anyone posting in this thread.
No, the only ones that would do that would be Hyper Calvinists, and those views are not accepted by mnainstream calvinism!
God did determine the death of Jesus on the Cross, and also used sinners to have that worked out, so BOTH aspects are shown there!
There are, IF one holds to the truth that since the fall of Adam, there remains no longer real free will to us a s a way to have God save us!
God ordained the death of Christ, and also used sinners to bring that to pass!
Calv1
Active Member
Grudem is good, but there's a reason people always recommend Berkof. He's wrong, we do know. God owes NO MAN GRACE, so if He withholds grace, and a man sins, it's still the mans volition to commit the sin, and he is guilty and should be judged. THE END. Try thinking it through, it's very simple, we can only do as good as God's grace takes us, but if He withholds what we do not deserve, we will sin, but it's still us, that's what happens to a fallen race, and we, not God who does not owe us, is accountable.
Calv1
Active Member
I don't think it's blasphemy if properly understood, not arguing with you, but this is how I and the Reformers saw it.
God owes no man grace, not even the Regenerate, He has promised us enough Grace for Salvation, but if we look, IE Isaiah, "Lord, why have you hardened our hearts so we fear you not", we see a classic example of the point I'm going to make, that is if God owes us no grace, and no one can argue He does, He can withhold grace from say David, David sins with Bathsheba, but who is guilty? David, David, a sinner, is only doing what he does, sin, God owes Him no grace to overcome each and every sin, in fact will allow us to go into sin to bring out great things.
Jesus said we'd should pray "Father, LEAD US not into temptation", God doesn't tempt man, nor can be tempted, but He led Jesus BY THE SPIRIT TO WHAT? Be tempted. So Jesus tells us to ask God to NOT LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION, the implication of course is that He does. God can lead sinners into temptation, yet not in any way be responsible.
Who is this guy? What does he think he's going to take down Luther, Calvin, Knox, Edwards? The guy is a joke, I only respond because I don't want those who are not schooled to fall for the amateur attempts to lead people away from scripture.
Arminians don't believe scripture, Reformed each and every word, IE James says "Don't say we will do this or that, but rather IF THE LORD IS WILLING we will do this or that", God ordains EACH AND EVERY ACTION WE DO, IS NOT CULPABLE FOR SIN, TEMPTATION, but ARMINIANS HAVEN'T STUDIED DEEP ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO PUT THIS BEAUTIFUL TRUTH TOGETHER, they see God as loving everyone yet frustrated, God does NOT love everyone, people forget the end of John 3:16, that do not believe, the WRATH OF GOD ABIDES IN THEM", Wrath is a furious anger, yet He's so good, so kind, He gives temporal blessings to them in this life
In the creation of the free will in Adam, God gave permission for the choice of evil (or otherwise no choice exists) and thus permission for evil to exist. However, in the creation of free will he also ordained that Adam would he held accountable for his choice as well. With the execution of evil as a consequence of original sin God restrains what will not ultimately be the good of his people (Rom. 8:28) or will not ultimately be made to glorify his name (Psa. 76:10):
Ps 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise you: the remainder of wrath shall you restrain.
So yes, God controls evil as he controls Satan (Job 1-2). Fallen man cannot justly complain about God's wise administration over evil simply because fallen man deserves more than what God permits and God has the full right to restrain and allow evil as he sees fit. He uses it to punish the ungodly and chasten the righteous. Indeed, he uses it in the life of the child of God to build up resistance to sin as sin is abrasive to the inward new man and many times we are allowed to fall into sin and its consequences in order to build up resistance that will eventually overcome it in our lives.
God owes no man mercy or grace but only owes man wrath due to sin. However, his graciousness is seen in his restraint and wise administration of sin and its consequences.
Ps 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise you: the remainder of wrath shall you restrain.
So yes, God controls evil as he controls Satan (Job 1-2). Fallen man cannot justly complain about God's wise administration over evil simply because fallen man deserves more than what God permits and God has the full right to restrain and allow evil as he sees fit. He uses it to punish the ungodly and chasten the righteous. Indeed, he uses it in the life of the child of God to build up resistance to sin as sin is abrasive to the inward new man and many times we are allowed to fall into sin and its consequences in order to build up resistance that will eventually overcome it in our lives.
God owes no man mercy or grace but only owes man wrath due to sin. However, his graciousness is seen in his restraint and wise administration of sin and its consequences.
What if God created us, of the flesh, carnal, gave a law, thou shall not eat, selling us under sin, Rom 7:14? That is God: For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Knowing, "in hope," being, the redemption of the purchased possession.
Redemption, foreordained before the foundation of the world.
Evil is the works of the devil and that above is the means of destroying the works of the devil.
IMHO
Knowing, "in hope," being, the redemption of the purchased possession.
Redemption, foreordained before the foundation of the world.
Evil is the works of the devil and that above is the means of destroying the works of the devil.
IMHO
Jas_1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
What is your position here?
Do you believe that God didn't permit them to sin and that therefore they didn't sin and the Bible is wrong?
Or do you believe that God was unable to stop them from sinning and is therefore less powerful than His creatures?
Exactly so. For His own high and gracious purposes, God permitted Adam to sin in the same way that He has permitted you and me to sin. But it was Adam who sinned and it is you and I who sin today and we are responsible for that sin and unless God provides Himself with a propitiation for that sin we are in deep trouble.
Exactly where is that in the Bible? TCassidy is quite right that those words are blasphemy and Revmitchell is right to quote James 1:13.
'Oh the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out!
For who has know the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counsellor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him?
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen' (Romans 11:33-36).
I get pretty sick of people trying to charge God with unrighteousness unless He does things their way. Mr Martin, just read Proverbs 3:5-8 and be satisfied.
John 6:39. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but raise it up at the last day." The Father has given the Son a people to redeem and He will lose none of them (cf. John 10:27-29; 17:2). If the Father has given Him every person in the world to redeem, then every person in the world will be redeemed There is no question of the Father giving Him everyone and He only saving some. But......
John 6:40. "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life; and I will raise Him up at the last day." Anyone at all who wills may trust in Christ and come to Him and He absolutely promises not to turn them away (John 6:37).
There is an apparent paradox or antinomy in these two verses, but they are both in the Bible and we must believe them both as absolute truth. We can, in our preaching, tell the very worst sinner that if he will repent and trust in Christ, He will not turn him away. At the same time, if he does so, it is because God the Father has loved him from before the foundation of the world, given him to the Son to redeemed and drawn him by the power of the Holy Spirit (Jeremiah 31:3; John 6:44; Ephesians 1:4-5 etc.).
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
Was the purpose of the creation of Adam, so that the Son of God could be manifested as a man in order to destroy the works of the devil? Was Adam created because the devil had sinned and began his works?
Does not Hebrews 2:6,7,9 and 14 tell how the Son of God was manifested and why he he was thus manifested? What about Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:?
He was manifested just as Adam was, a little lower than the angels, just as Adam's children were, flesh and blood? Why, because of the death, that through the death he could destroy him who had the power of the death, that is the devil.
Is not, the redemption of the body, the means by which God the Father through the Son of God, Jesus is going about destroying the works of the devil?
Is the following verse relative to the total destruction of the devil? Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Will that be accomplished by the redemption of the body of Romans 8:23?
Could any of that have takes place if Adam had been created immortal and or incorruptible in any shape or form?
Did the foundation of the world take place because of the sin of the devil?
Consider: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption (the redemption of the body?) of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Eph 1:3-6
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in himself Eph 1:9,10:
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Rom 8:20-25
Someone correct me if I am wrong. Thanks in advance.
Was the purpose of the creation of Adam, so that the Son of God could be manifested as a man in order to destroy the works of the devil? Was Adam created because the devil had sinned and began his works?
Does not Hebrews 2:6,7,9 and 14 tell how the Son of God was manifested and why he he was thus manifested? What about Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:?
He was manifested just as Adam was, a little lower than the angels, just as Adam's children were, flesh and blood? Why, because of the death, that through the death he could destroy him who had the power of the death, that is the devil.
Is not, the redemption of the body, the means by which God the Father through the Son of God, Jesus is going about destroying the works of the devil?
Is the following verse relative to the total destruction of the devil? Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Will that be accomplished by the redemption of the body of Romans 8:23?
Could any of that have takes place if Adam had been created immortal and or incorruptible in any shape or form?
Did the foundation of the world take place because of the sin of the devil?
Consider: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption (the redemption of the body?) of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Eph 1:3-6
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in himself Eph 1:9,10:
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Rom 8:20-25
Someone correct me if I am wrong. Thanks in advance.
Guys, you're wasting your time asking AM any questions. He's been gone for over 4 weeks(I think). He tucked tail and ran.
I have heard my pastor preach that on doorway to enter heaven, t states that whosoevers wills, but on the inside, chosen from the foundation of the world!
- Status