-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is Wayne Grudem Right?
- Thread starter AndyMartin
- Start date
- Status
People go to hell. God does not damn people to hell. In fact every person that goes to hell wants to go there they want to be eternally separated from God.
From the catechism:
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
Hell has a gate that is LOCKED FROM THE INSIDE.
Matthew 16
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Folks in hell do not love God and definitely don't love you or me.
I've even heard you say Menno of the totally depraved that basicly all are on the way there on their own. I think it was a described like a river just flowing the way it would go, and God reaches out and saves people.
All humans go to hell, not because they want to go there, but because the law condemns them to hell.
The law condemns them and they refuse to seek God out for a pardon. This is why free-will is non-biblical teaching. Romans makes the point clear.
Romans 3:10-17New International Version (NIV)
10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
You are listening. Good.
Indeed, if God does not reach down and pardon (pluck those out of their own damnation) then they are damned by their own sin. The law condemns us as law breakers. We need someone to save us...and it is not ourselves. We cannot save ourselves...even though that is the very basis of your argument (you seem too blind and stubborn to see that you are making that argument).
I am not a Calvinist but I've studied it enough to know that every reprobate wants to go to hell. Because if he sincerely did not want to go to hell he would have been given that first spark of regeneration to want to be with God, that is want to go to heaven.
You say yourself they refuse to seek pardon from God, they do not want heaven at all.
Your Roman's 3 quote is out of context misapplied to all people for all time.
Let me try to clear it up by way of PUNISHMENTS God put on same folks in chapter 1
Its a bit like God hardening pharaoh heart, you believe that happened right? I do too.
Or as CONTEXT of ROMANS 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
So here we have God looking at people know the truth and suppress it , Understanding that is GOD GIVEN, God made it evident. Where God's eternal power and divine nature has been clearly seen. This is not someone who is shut off.
PEOPLE WHO KNOW GOD. And they darken their hearts. and we see the punishment that follows from God.
He punishes them by:
24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind,
This is the punishment God gives these people. They had the truth! they KNEW GOD!
So whats the problem here?
Calvinist God can't do the above.
Why? Because you cannot darken the color BLACK!
If its already totally depraved there is no darkening, hardening, There is no giving them a depraved mind.
God is here punishing folks with a depraved mind........buddy if he was totally depraved to begin with.....he can't punish them with a depraved mind!
Now just for the sake of entertaining what is being debated here. Lets assume Romans 3 thing are said for all people and all time.
I could go through the list and say "okay that's true everyone" for every single verse.
YET!
NONE OF IT says that GOD DECLARES that ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL.
That is an addition put up by your philosophy into scripture, You cannot pull God's judgement from scripture stating that ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL.
I can read that list and say.......wow mankind deserves to tar and feathered, And you might read it and think yes this is true. But that does not equate to GOD STATING Mankind deserves to be tar and feathered.
We cannot make this judgement. God can make the judgement, LET HIM DO IT! SHOW ME THE VERSE. Its not there. He never made that call.
We are ALL lost from birth, and what saves is not love for/towards others, but grace alone!
Unless the Holy Spirit enabled any of us here to believe in Jesus and get saved, we would ALL here have "freely" chosen hell!
Both Romans 1 and Romans 3 are saying the same thing.
Humans are by nature rebels to God's kingdom. This does not mean they don't want to go to heaven. (survey people and ask if they want to go to heaven) It means that they want to go to heaven by the path of their own making. (They don't realize their path is hell bound due to the laws condemnation.) They don't even consider seeking God's path. In fact they are incapable of seeking God's path. God must take them off the path they are on and place them on His path. God must choose to do this. Humans will never choose God's path.
Utilyan, you get so caught up in hating Calvin that you refuse to let God's word speak. You end up contradicting yourself in an attempt to not agree with anything Calvin said. Why is it so important for you to disagree with someone rather than agree with that person when you both read the same thing in the Bible. You need to let your prejudice go.
Sinners left to their own accord would agree with Milton satan, far better to rule in hell than serve in heaven!
"(survey people and ask if they want to go to heaven)"
Totally depraved always lie.
I agree with letting God's word speak. So show us where God Says All mankind deserves hell.
Show us that verse: And Jesus walked up the mount and said "All mankind deserves to go to hell"
You think Jesus deserves to go to hell? If you say "NO" that is not all mankind.
You guys still did not answer Romans 1 how does God give Jews depraved minds if they were already totally depraved to begin with.
How can God punish anyone with a harden heart or darkening heart, or giving them a depraved mind, If they are totally depraved, dark and harden already to begin with?
The absurdity is you can't darken the color black.
How can God punish anyone with a harden heart or darkening heart, or giving them a depraved mind, If they are totally depraved, dark and harden already to begin with?
The absurdity is you can't darken the color black.
The wages of sin is death. It's that simple.
utilyan, people have shown you. You demand a verse that gives the very words you demand. You're being childish and petulant because you are proved wrong.
Jesus, is sinless. Who else in all humanity is sinless? Let me act like you for a moment. Name someone, other than Jesus, who is sinless and thus not condemned by God's law.
So...all mankind (other than God in human flesh) is condemned by the law due to sin. This is taught very clearly in the Bible.
Why are you being such a [Crude language edited]? It amazes me to see you be so argumentative despite the fact that your argument is terribly weak and unsupported.
Last edited by a moderator:
Wages of sin is death, I agree. This still doesn't state All mankind deserve hell which is a PERSONAL JUDGEMENT not GOD's own judgment.
All you had is the simple job of showing us scripture where God says "all mankind deserves hell".
FAILED.
Jesus Christ states himself DO NOT JUDGE OTHERS.
In the bible we can find a verse that says ALL MANKIND IS GOING TO HELL and this would still not equate to ALL MANKIND DESERVES TO GO TO HELL. Because saying anything deserves to go to hell is a JUDGEMENT reserved to GOD ALONE.
Please by all means give an example of judgment of others that Jesus Christ says is wrong, Its not going to hold a candle to your wrongful judgment that they deserve to go to hell.
In fact there is NO WAY you can comply with the command of Jesus Christ DO NOT JUDGE OTHERS by already judging them to deserve hell.
What you are doing by judging that all deserve hell is a sin.
Just to repeat what I posted before:
Psalm 7:11. 'God is a just judge, and God is angry with sinners every day.'
Psalm 9:17. 'The wicked shall be turned into hell.'
Psalm 14:2-3, 'The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one.'
Psalm 7:11. 'God is a just judge, and God is angry with sinners every day.'
Psalm 9:17. 'The wicked shall be turned into hell.'
Psalm 14:2-3, 'The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one.'
Utilyan, you are desperately twisting to come up with any reason to say that all humans do not fall short of the glory of God.
I'm not even sure why it bothers you that God's law condemns all sinners to hell.
Tell me why you are bothered by God being just in his judgment.
Calv1
Active Member
It's not heresy, instead just a lack of learning on your part, sorry don't mean to be rude, sometimes it's just so frustrating going over this basic stuff that's so readily available to all, and then instead of studying it, making a post on a forum with part truth.
Yes God has ordained all that comes to pass, BUT IN A WAY WHERE HE IS IN NO WHERE RESPONSIBLE FOR SIN. Read Westminster Confession.
Berkoff, and all Reformed Theology teaches the same.
You are simply looking at things from the wrong way. Man sinned, we are a sinful race, however we are not as sinful as we can be. IE God hasn't totally depraved us (Withdrawn Himself) as He has with the devils when they sinned, but we are spiritually dead, and unable to please God, but THROUGH HIS GRACE HE UPHOLDS US ALL TO A POINT, this is a crucial factor.
Let me repeat, WE ARE NOT AS SINFUL AS WE CAN BE, NOT FULL DEVILS KILLING EACH OTHER, BY HIS GRACE HE HAS GIVEN US KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL THAT WE BE LIKE HIM (Gen 5). Now if God WITHDRAWS WHAT HE DOESN'T OWE, NAMELY GRACE, WHAT DO WE DO? Sin! Does that make Him responsible? No, we are responsible.
Analogies fail, let me put a couple out to ILLUSTRATE A POINT. We have a man so wicked that he just kills anyone that he sees, breaks things, has the death penalty over his head, HE IS EVIL. I create a medicine that calms him down, he relaxes a bit, doesn't kill others or break things. I DON'T OWE HIM THIS MEDICINE, I'm the judge of the land and should have him executed, but if I decide, FOR MY PURPOSE, to give him this medicine to achieve something good, am I at fault for helping him? Am I unjust? No for I'm doing it for a good purpose.
So I know my Cal brothers will probably get me on that one, I agree it's not the best Analogy, but that is pretty much how it works. Grudem knows this, why he is acting like it's mystery I do not know.
God has given all of us crazy killers grace, we act in a somewhat rational way, for the King wishes to see man in His image knowing good and evil, He even gives the wicked extra good worldly things to enhance their punishment later Psalm 73.
If I fall into sin, God has withdrawn certain graces He doesn't owe me, if I do things to HIs glory it's not of me but of His grace. It's heads I win, tails you lose. If I sin, I don't blame God, I say "God see how sinful I am, I confess this to you, and I thank you for showing me just how evil I truly am, and how great your grace truly is, to save a sinner such as me". To the unregenerate they can't please God anyways, they are given just enough grace to know the difference between good and evil, and appreciate on judgement day they deserve what they are getting.
EVERYTHING IS GOD CENTERED, when we get OFF OURSELVES, AND LOOK AT EVERYTHING THROUGH GOD'S STANDPOINT everything makes perfect sense. The bible is not about us, or salvation really, but about God's Glory. The answer to "Why is......" is "For God's glory", man is selfish, we hate this, we want everything to be about us, so we fight this, but I promise you once you yield yourself to the fact that all life is about God's glory, not only will you be happy, everything will make sense to you. Be GLAD reality is about His glory, if it weren't we'd be most miserable creatures.
Calv1
Active Member
Sunday School 101, 5 years old, first teaching. "All men deserve Hell". This is lost in the Arminian and other heresies. Good to see you brother, out of all of these people only you stayed with me, shared my pain, built me up, you don't just talk the talk but you walk the walk. Things are great now, but you were there while I was walking through the Valley, all my other brothers were up on the hill just looking, only you walked with me, thanks, God bless you and He will.
Calv1
Active Member
Exactly. I actually came up with an amazing thought some time ago, and I'd like to share it.
Sin is OFFENSE TO GOD, it HURTS HIM, HE HATES IT, now these are terms that are not positive towards God. When we say God ordains a thing, we are not saying He approves of it in and of itself. For example God ordained the death of His own Son, the most horrific act in history, yet what does scripture say about it? "For it PLEASED the Lord to bruise Him" Isaiah 53. How can it PLEASE the Lord for His own Son to be tortured, internal grief beyond any man, and die on a cross?
The answer is that it didn't PLEASE GOD AS IT'S OWN END. Both Calvinist and Arminian theologians agree that God has at least two wills, often called "Revealed" and "Secret" to keep it simple, and ti's actually quite simple, for we have this as well. When we spank our children it pleases us, we hate the actual act of spanking, but it pleases us ultimately as we know our child will not do that bad act anymore.
In the same way we read in Acts 4 that God ordained the Jews and Gentiles, Pilate and the rest to come together and crucify Christ, yet we also know that God hates murder, especially of the innocent. We see this all through Scripture, God "Incited" David to take a census, then judged David for taking the census. God hates murder, but planned the murder of His own son.
We so easily forget God is not working with righteous humans, but wicked humans, He used evil to accomplish His purposes with Egypt through Joseph, where we see Joseph's brothers doing their OWN EVIL, yet God also used that same evil, but for good.
If there are seekers on this board, don't allow this stuff to twist your mind. Read Westminster and London Baptist Confession like men used to do, read basic Reformed (Luther, Calvin, Knox, etc.) Theology, read Luthers "Bondage of the will", and most important ignore Arminian PHILOSOPHY, they are NOT on the side of the Reformation, Luther and Calvin agreed, Arminians are closer to Rome than the Reformers, not classical Arminianism, but on these forums you see semi-Pelagism, not classical Arminianism. READ, STUDY, LEARN, LEAN NOT UNTO YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING, BUT TRUST WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT HIMSELF.
If God says "I create calamity" believe Him, step out in faith and I promise you'll see the full picture, it's not about man but God, and it's bright and beautiful, suddenly you'll see verses that you never saw before "And the Lord hardened their hearts so they should hate the Israelite's", "And the Lord opened the heart of Lydia so she could understand the things the Apostles were saying".
Remember Scripture reconciles that God is SO PURE HE CAN'T EVEN LOOK UPON SIN, yet also certifies that ALL THINGS THAT COME TO PASS ARE ORDAINED BY GOD. Contrary? No, it's your job as a Christian to study, and you'll see they are concurrent.
Providence is an amazing thing. Keep the faith.
Calv1
Active Member
Especially when you can SEE IT! You can see one thing after another fail, then no matter what you do succeed.
Without Providence, without knowledge of it I'd go insane, for it would mean MOST THINGS ARE PURPOSELESS. Man can take the worst suffering IF THEY KNOW IT'S FOR THEIR GOOD, AND FOR A PURPOSE. If man is in charge as the Arminians espouse, then when trouble comes it's our job to get out, is purposeless, and no good should be expected to come out of it and Romans 8:20 is a lie.
Without Providence, without knowledge of it I'd go insane, for it would mean MOST THINGS ARE PURPOSELESS. Man can take the worst suffering IF THEY KNOW IT'S FOR THEIR GOOD, AND FOR A PURPOSE. If man is in charge as the Arminians espouse, then when trouble comes it's our job to get out, is purposeless, and no good should be expected to come out of it and Romans 8:20 is a lie.
- Status