Is your church or pastor on the list?

[EdSutton]

Think of all the people (professing Christians and non-Christians) who say things like, "Well I'm basically a good person. I've done bad things but I've done a lot of good things, too. In the end, I think it all balances out." Translation: They're trusting in their works.

Bingo! (Rom. 11:6)

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: And I will raise him up at the last day".

Jhn 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Romans 5:6 "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."

5:32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Seems if you don't get it when you are dead in sin, then you lose out.

Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Even when you repent, you still have all the sins against you so you are in need of a Saviour.

Rom 5:7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Though you quit sinning, those sins you did do have to be paid for, so Jesus did that. Sorry you don't understand the scripture.

John 16:8 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

You got this one right, the first thing is to believe and then repent and be baptized by the Holy Ghost and you will then be made alive in Christ Jesus.

John 3:18 "He that believeth on Him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God".

According to this verse God makes it clear what condemns man--unbelief.

What saves a man is belief.

We are already condemned--turning from sin will not change that because we are "without strength" to do anything about it. But believing on Christ will.

Carrierwave~

Believing from the heart entails belief, repent and be baptized by the Holy Ghost. Even the Devil "believes", are you saying he has eternal life???

This is where we started at the first of this thread.

Luk 13:3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

It is foolish to try and separate repentance from Salvation.

2Cr 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Rom 8:13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Mortify means to bring under subjection.


Luk 16:13No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

One thing you are completely missing Carrierwave~ is that if a man were to "repent" and never commit another sin, he still would be "dead" in sin, because of all of the sins he had committed in his life, and still would be in need of a Saviour to cleanse them and cast them away, never to be remember against him anymore. And that is the answer to all the scripture you posted.

I pray that you are not one of those who never repented of their sins.

 

[Brother Bob]

Npet; For what it's worth, the pastor of my church happened to give his definition of repentance today. He basically said it was to turn away from the old system of works/law to grace and salvation in Jesus. He made a pretty good case for it. For example, the following verse seems to have a lot more to do with the gospel than it does sin:

I suspect you misunderstood your Pastor. I think he said when you were made free from the Law of the Commandments was when you were born again. For sin is transgression of the Law. So, he meant you quit transgressing the Law and was made free in Christ. Which means to believe, repent and be baptized by the Holy Ghost.

Print out what I just posted and ask him? Also, ask him if he believes you have to repent of your sins to be saved.

I just can't see a real honest preacher saying "you don't have to repent". It defys the whole Bible to say such a thing.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Ed;

Romans 11: 1: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2: God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4: But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ed you need to quit using scripture telling us that we are no longer under the Law Covenant of circumcism, sacrifices and trying to apply it to repenting of sins. What extremes some will go to try and justify their theology.

BBob,

 

[tinytim]

How can someone understand the cross, and still not repent of their sins?...

To me, belief and repentance are 2 sides of the same coin..

When I truly understood that my sins, MY sins were the reason Jesus died... I cried out, "GOD FORGIVE ME!!!"

If something hurts someone you care for, you start hating that thing that hurt them....
Sin hurt Christ.

We should hate sin. And I think every Christian here will agree with me that when a person gets saved they don't desire to sin.

That desire to remain pure and sinless, along with the sickening feeling we get when we sin, are symptoms of true repentance.

A person cannot truly believe without repentance. For when they truly believe, repentance is the by-product of belief.

And I think they happen simultaneously.

 

[EdSutton]

Ed;

Ed you need to quit using scripture telling us that we are no longer under the Law Covenant of circumcism, sacrifices and trying to apply it to repenting of sins. What extremes some will go to try and justify their theology.

BBob,

Brother Bob, I did not say one thing about any of this you just ascribed to me. Unless I have not got that someone else is named Ed. I think you have the wrong person on this one. I did cite Rom. 11:6, to show that one cannot admix grace and works, for they are either one or the other.

I'll try and type real slow here, so I don't lose you or anyone else in this.

You are absolutely correct that I do believe (and the Bible teaches) that a Christian is free from, and not under ANY of the stated precepts of the 'Mosaic' Law, which BTW, is one reason we are not to sin (Rom. 6:14-15; 7:3; 8:2; Gal. 5:18), which entire law was personally nailed to the cross by the Lord Jesus Christ, himself (Eph.2:14-16; Col. 2:14), and 'replaced', as it were, by a new 'law' that is entirely of 'grace' principles and language, and is variously described as "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus", "the law of faith", "the law of liberty", "the royal law", "My commandments", and "a new commandment", in the words of Jesus, Paul, and James, among other descriptions. (Jn. 13:34; 14:15, 21; Rom. 3:27; 8:2; Jas. 1:25; 2:8; et al.)

The modus operandi of this 'law' is being "led by the Spirit", something that a lost individual never can even do. (Rom. 8:14) Read Romans to see the real effect of both this now abolished 'old law' and this now established 'new law', which is based on the same 'real principles' that underly both 'laws'. One more thing, as a Gentile, I never even 'had' the 'old law' ("your law") that was given only to Jewish Israel (Jn. 8:17; 10:34; 18:31; Ac. 18:15; Rom. 2:14a), and I have absolutely no desire, now, to place myself under "the law of sin and death". (Rom. 8:2; Gal. 4:21) which only has the promise of death for failure to perform to its standards, as an "all or nothing" proposition. (Gal. 5:2-4; Jas. 2:9-11)

Sorry for the short above "derail" but it was necessary in the context of my replying to the post.

Further, "repentance" or "repent" (that is the subject of this thread, you remember) is never once spoken of in any way in the Mosaic law, for that word is not used there, but "sin" is spoken of a bunch of times in the law, at least 100 times, if not double that, by count. (I did not count exactly, in the Var. Scriptures)

So I do fully admit to "using Scripture" by quoting it, in context. And I do not (nor have I ever done so) applied it to any non- existent Biblical phrase such as "repenting of sins" (Again, that is the OP, you remember), for one can't apply it to something that does not exist. And as that phrase does not exist in the first place, I take exception to the implied charge of and I quote:

What extremes some will go to (sic) try and justify their theology.

I suggest some others might want to check a mirror on this one. (I did and only see an ugly mug looking back!) :laugh:

Back to the serious stuff. And let's not forget that of all these individuals, from the universally beloved, now banned poster Sanderson (holding my side on this one, as I type one-handed), to carrierwave~, to Tom Butler, to Alcott, to webdog, to Joe, to Npetreley, to the not on this thread DHK, to yours truly, EdSutton - (tinytim is almost there, and mcdirector is part way there, but not yet fully with me here, but both are leaning in the right direction) - not one of them has said that repentance is not necessary, or should not be preached (I have consistently said that repentance is both necessary and should be preached), but have variously said that:

(1) it is not properly defined as "repentance of/from sin(s)", especially in the matter of salvation (for the Bible tells us that 'direction' of repentance/faith in Ac. 20:21 and Heb 6:1b);

(2) that "repent"/"repentance" is the 'flip-side', hence an integral, indivisible part of "believe"/"faith";

(3) that this is often a verson of a "code phrase" or a 'back door' attempt to make grace and faith encompass and include works, by definition;

(4) that it may well be a subterfuge for what is known as "Lordship salvation";

(5) that that phrase ["repent of/from one's sin(s)"] is not to be found in Scripture; and that

(6) a "repentance" (change of mind) from sin, unto holy living should be expected from one when one becomes a Christian, through spiritual growth, Spirit control, and maturity - among other things said in defense of "free grace".

So personally, I think that I have plowed this same furrow enough times and it is (or should at least be) deep enough to bury forever several "spiritual dead horses" in so that they are never again seen.

And I suggest that the ones who are actually "trying to justify their theology" are the ones who are adding words to Scripture, such as "of sins" to the word "repent", where it is not found, or "really and truly" to "believe", and not those of us who are "telling it like it is" and not using any more words on the subject than as Scripture does.

Ed

P.S. It is certainly no "honor" to be found on the OP list, when this (or any) OP list is exposing a false teaching! Do you hear me on this, tinytim?

 

[npetreley]

The modus operandi of this [new] 'law' is being "led by the Spirit", something that a lost individual never can even do.

A big, hearty, Amen.

The law made sin exceedingly sinful so that we could recognize the futility of trying to follow the law (trying not to sin) on our own steam. We can't do it. We can't decide to stop sinning. This leaves us in a terrible predicament. "Who will rescue me from this body of death?"

 

[Brother Bob]

NPet;
At least the Law did something for you.

Npet; The law made sin exceedingly sinful so that we could recognize the futility of trying to follow the law (trying not to sin)

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by npetreley
Think of all the people (professing Christians and non-Christians) who say things like, "Well I'm basically a good person. I've done bad things but I've done a lot of good things, too. In the end, I think it all balances out." Translation: They're trusting in their works.

Bingo! (Rom. 11:6)

Ed

If you do not want called on it, then quit bingoing!!!

Ed;
You are the one who brought in Romans 11:6 to try to apply it to repentance by works, and Romans 11:6 is talking about the Old Law Covenant of which I brought to your attention.

Further, "repentance" or "repent" (that is the subject of this thread, you remember) is never once spoken of in any way in the Mosaic law,

Hsa 13:14I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

The modus operandi of this 'law' is being "led by the Spirit", something that a lost individual never can even do. (Rom. 8:14)

Job 32:8But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Did the Spirit lead you to Salvation Ed. ???? or did you do it all on your own???

Back to the serious stuff. And let's not forget that of all these individuals, from the universally beloved, now banned poster Sanderson (holding my side on this one, as I type one-handed), to carrierwave~, to Tom Butler, to Alcott, to webdog, to Joe, to Npetreley, to the not on this thread DHK, to yours truly, EdSutton - (tinytim is almost there, and mcdirector is part way there, but not yet fully with me here, but both are leaning in the right direction) - not one of them has said that repentance is not necessary, or should not be preached (I have consistently said that repentance is both necessary and should be preached), but have variously said that:

Repentance from what Ed. Sin????? Are you saying all these posters names you have posted believe that we must repent from SIN???? How many of those posters you say you have persuaded over to your side (as you call it, I thought it was the Lord's side) believe, you do not have to repent of your sins to be saved??

And I suggest that the ones who are actually "trying to justify their theology" are the ones who are adding words to Scripture, such as "of sins" to the word "repent", where it is not found, or "really and truly" to "believe", and not those of us who are "telling it like it is" and not using any more words on the subject than as Scripture does.

Ed

Open your mouth wide and speak what and who you mean, and quit playing with words. You not too good at it.


more to come.

 

[Brother Bob]

Tim:

How can someone understand the cross, and still not repent of their sins?...

To me, belief and repentance are 2 sides of the same coin..

When I truly understood that my sins, MY sins were the reason Jesus died... I cried out, "GOD FORGIVE ME!!!"

If something hurts someone you care for, you start hating that thing that hurt them....
Sin hurt Christ.

We should hate sin. And I think every Christian here will agree with me that when a person gets saved they don't desire to sin.

That desire to remain pure and sinless, along with the sickening feeling we get when we sin, are symptoms of true repentance.

A person cannot truly believe without repentance. For when they truly believe, repentance is the by-product of belief.

And I think they happen simultaneously.

Amen Bro Tim;
Can you imagine the confusion they have cause by saying a man can't repent. Hogwash! Ed says they can repent, just not of sins. If I understand him right. That I am not sure of.

BBob,

 

[npetreley]

I think you're just missing the point. You seem to think that if someone says gospel repentance does not mean repenting of sins, that must mean they condone sinning. I think that's borderline paranoia.

 

[Brother Bob]

I think you're just missing the point. You seem to think that if someone says gospel repentance does not mean repenting of sins, that must mean they condone sinning. I think that's borderline paranoia.

I am not missing anything. carrywave said we couldn't repent from sin. You keep horsing all around the subject, why not just be plain and say what you believe, do you have to repent of your sins or not, to be saved???

BBob,

 

[npetreley]

I am not missing anything. carrywave said we couldn't repent from sin. You keep horsing all around the subject, why not just be plain and say what you believe, do you have to repent of your sins or not, to be saved???

BBob,

Wasn't I clear enough? We can't stop sinning on our own steam. In fact, if you don't reach the point where you realize you can't stop sinning on your own, the gospel will mean nothing to you.

You won't get there unless you first recognize the severity of sin and its consequences. So nobody is condoning sin. I'm just saying that repentance isn't about saying you're going to stop sinning.

 

[Brother Bob]

Wasn't I clear enough? We can't stop sinning on our own steam. In fact, if you don't reach the point where you realize you can't stop sinning on your own, the gospel will mean nothing to you.

You won't get there unless you first recognize the severity of sin and its consequences. So nobody is condoning sin. I'm just saying that repentance isn't about saying you're going to stop sinning.

So, if you are an adultereous, you cannot quit committing adultery. If you are a killer, you cannot quit killing others. If you are an pedophile, you cannot quit being one.

Is this what you are saying Npet;

I say you have to reach a point where you realize you have done all you can do, and are in need of a Savior.

You won't get there unless you first recognize the severity of sin and its consequences. So nobody is condoning sin. I'm just saying that repentance isn't about saying you're going to stop sinning.

What is repentance if its not turning from sin??


BBob,

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Ssome people stop committing certain sins on their own. For instance, a thief can stop stealing for fear of the police catching him; an adulterer can stop cheating on his wife for fear his wife might find out. People can stop sinning without Christ in the picture.

But, without Christ in the equation, stopping sinning will do no good.

Why does the thief or adulterer quit their stealing or cheating? Fear of being caught... fear of consequences. That fear causes a repentant heart... a sorrowful heart.

Some measure of repentance is necessary prior to Salvation. If you are not sorrowful for your sins, your heart is rebellious. It is calling out to God in your own terms, and not His.

A broken and contrite heart thou wilt not despise, O God.

 

[Brother Bob]

Agree Sfic;
A broken heart and seeking the Lord are needed for sure, If you want Salvation.

Ezek; 18:30
30: Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31: Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32: For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


BBob,

 

[npetreley]

Ssome people stop committing certain sins on their own. For instance, a thief can stop stealing for fear of the police catching him; an adulterer can stop cheating on his wife for fear his wife might find out. People can stop sinning without Christ in the picture.

That isn't the point. Maybe they can stop a sin. They can't stop being a sinner.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Nor can they stop being a sinner this side of eterntity even if they are saved..

Something to think about.

 

[npetreley]

Nor can they stop being a sinner this side of eterntity even if they are saved..

That's right. Then why do we flea to Christ? Because you "repented of your sins", i.e., decided to stop sinning? If so, you must be pretty disappointed that it didn't work.

Maybe you don't sin as much, and maybe you don't commit the same sins, but deciding to stop sinning didn't fix the fact that you're a sinner. So maybe, at this point, one needs to "repent" of thinking one can stop sinning, and flea to our Savior for mercy, instead. And that's what we're talking about.

 

[christianyouth]

I thought I would just add some thoughts from two great evangelical preachers, George Whitfield and Charles Spurgeon. Both believed that Repentance, a forsaking of sin was necessary for salvation. Repentance was always part of their Gospel presentation. Obviously, since they were Calvinists, they saw repentance as brought about by God. They readily acknolwedged that were faith is , repentance will be found. I'm going to post some pretty long excepts, but I trust these will be a blessing to you.

This one is from Spurgeon's sermons, Volume II.
Turn Or Burn

I.In the first place, my hearers, let me endeavor to explain to you the nature of the turning here meant.....

Ah! My hearer, it is not thy promise of repentance that can save thee; it is not thy vow, it is not thy solemn declaration, it is not the tear that is dried more easily than the dew-drop by the sun; it is not the transient emotion of the heart, which constitues a real turning to God. There must be a true and actual abandonment of sin, and a turning unto righteousness in real act and deed in every day life. Do you say you are sorry, and repent, and yet go on from day to day, just as you always went? Will you now boy your heads, and say, "Lord, I Repent," and in a little while commit the same deeds again? If you do, your repentance is worse than nothing, and shall but make your destruction yet more sure; for he that voweth to his Maker, and doth not pay, hath committed another sin, in that he hath attempted to deceive the Almighty, and lie against God that made him. Repentance, to be true, to be evangelical, must be a repentance which really affects our outward conduct.

In the next place, repentance must be entire. How many will say, "Sir, I will renounce this sin and the other; but there are certain darling lusts which I must keep and hold." O sirs, in God's name let me tell you, it is not the giving up of one sin, nor fifty sins which is true repentance; it is the solemn renunciation of every sin. If thou dost harbor one of these accursed vipers in thy heart, they repentance is but a sham. If thou dost indulge in but one lust, and dost give up every other, that one lust, like one leak in a ship, will sink thy soul.
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It's a great sermon, and he goes on to labor some other points about repentance. He says it must be immediate, hearty(from the heart), and perpetual(constant). It's not a work salvation, since he knows that his hearers are incapable of belief just as they are incapable of forsaking sin. In fact, I would argue that Spurgeons purpose in presenting such a hard Gospel is two-fold.
1) That false assurance of salvation would not be given to those who are not born again.
2) That the sinner will see the imposibility of the Gospel, and call out to God.

This is a great sermon, and probably one of the best presentations of the Gospel I have ever seen. He belabors the point of hell in the second portion of his sermon, and in the third, he tells the unbelievers that "Most seriously, I say, I do not believe any man can repent with evangelical repentance, of himself. You ask me then to what purpose is the sermon I have endeavored to preach, proving the necessity of repentance? Allow me to make the sermon of some purpose, under God, by its conclusion. Sinner! Thou art so desperately set on sin, that I have no hope thou wilt ever turn from it thyself. But, Listen! He who died on Calvary is exalted on high, 'To give repentance and remission of sin.' Dost thou this mornng feel that thou are a sinner? If so, ask of Christ to give thee repentance, for he can work repentance in thine heart by his Spirit, though thou canst not work it there thyself. Is thy heart like Iron? He can put it into the furnance of his love and make it melt. Is thy soul like the nether millstone? His grace is able to disolve it, like the ice is melted before the sun. He can make thee repent, thou thou canst not make thyself repent. If thou feelst thy need of repentance, I will not now say to thee 'repent', for I believer there are certain acts that must precede repentance. I should advice you to go to your houses and if you feel that you have sinned, and yet can not sufficiently repent of your transgression, bow your knees......


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George Whitefield : Repentance.

(Since that was such a long post up there, I will select small excepts to show that Whitefield also taught repentance to mean a forsaking of sin.)

" You, therefore, who have been sweaeres and cursers; you, who have been harlots and drunkards; you, who have been thieves and robbers; you, who have hitherto followed the sinful pleasures and diversions of life, let me beseech you, by the mercies of God in Christ Jesus, that you would no longer continue therein, but that you would forsake your evil ways, and turn unto the Lord. For he waits to be grascious to you, he is ready, he is willing to pardon you of all your sins: But do not expect Christ to pardon you of sin when you rin to it, and will not abstain from coplying with the temptations. But if you will be persuaded to absstain from evil and choose the good, to return to the Lord and repent of your wickedness, he has promised he will abundantly pardon you, he will heal your backslidings, and will love you freely. Resolve now this day to have done with your sins FOREVER; let your old ways and you be separated; you must resolve against it, for there can be no true repentance without a resolution to forsake it.... But then take that you do not ground your resolutions on your own strength, but in the strenght of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the way, he is the truth, he is the life; without his assistance, you can do nothing, but through his grace strengthening thee, thou wilt be enabled to do all things.

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As you see, Whitefield also preached the necessity of repentance for salvation, and defined repentance as a forsaking of sin. Notice, that the impossibility and the hardness of the Gospel message, made the way for God's grace to be magnified, by telling them that they should not resolve to fight against sin in their own strength.

I don't see these men as infallible. These are simply men. I do think, however, that is important to stay in contact with the flow of Christian thought. Many new doctrines emerge, and reading old commentaries and old Christian writers can help us to fight against new doctrines such as tongues, the carnal Christian, hyper-dispensationalism, hyper-calvinism, and so on.

Next on the agenda, I will see how Wesely thought about repentance for my non-Calvinist brothers out there.
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