Is Your Church Really Just a Business?

[JonC]

That is, by definition, a para church ministry.

No, it isn't. "Para" means "along side". A parachurch ministry isn't churches working together. The Bible Society is a parachurch ministry. It is an organization that works across denominations and alongside churches. But it exists outside of the churches.

An association of churches are churches working together.


Are you an active member of a church?

 

[AustinC]

No, it isn't. "Para" means "along side". A parachurch ministry isn't churches working together. The Bible Society is a parachurch ministry. It is an organization that works across denominations and alongside churches. But it exists outside of the churches.

An association of churches are churches working together.


Are you an active member of a church?

Isn't the actual organization doing the work a subsidiary of the conference? The churches join in support, but the actual doing of the work is run by an independent group outside of your specific church. That corresponds to a para-church ministry. It's a business approach to filling a perceived need.

As to the last question. Yes, I have been active in the church for 15 years. However, the church has "hired" young pastor's who are only interested in preaching and teaching. It is run like a business with administrators who preach, but with no shepherds.

We had a past thread regarding this issue and it plays into the article.

 

[JonC]

Isn't the actual organization doing the work a subsidiary of the conference?

No. It is a group of people (a ministry team) from several churches in our association.

I think you are thinking of the Southern Baptist Convention. If so, then you have a point (at least with SBC Seminaries).

Even then, though, we are not talking about churches following a business model but parachurch organizations following a business model.

Are you an active member of a local church?

 

[AustinC]

No. It is a group of people (a ministry team) from several churches in our association.

I think you are thinking of the Southern Baptist Convention. If so, then you have a point (at least with SBC Seminaries).

Even then, though, we are not talking about churches following a business model but parachurch organizations following a business model.

Are you an active member of a local church?

See post #22.

 

[JonC]

See post #22.

That is an issue. I have seen churches hire young pastors trying to make itself "relevant". To be fair, I have also seen very good younger pastors.

 

[AustinC]

That is an issue. I have seen churches hire young pastors trying to make itself "relevant". To be fair, I have also seen very good younger pastors.

The young pastor's aren't attempting to be "relevant." They preach sound doctrine. What they don't do is inquire as to the well being of their flock. They wait until something goes wrong and then judge as to whether the person or persons are in sin. But, in a few cases the issue would have been nipped in the bud had they just been talking to those in the flock. In other words, they don't do watch care to protect. Instead they react after the sheep has been mauled and then tend to blame the sheep. This blame has been more directed toward women as well. But, when confronted with the issue they say they are too busy preparing the various programs and teachings. My church has 4 full time persons 3 titled pastor's for a congregation of just under 200.

This article hits on the issue of churches functioning as businesses in the methodology. It isn't wrong in its observation of the vast number of churches in America. I have attended a variety of churches from IFCA to CMA to Southern Baptist to (for the last 15 years) North American Baptist. In all of them, the business model described in the article was the function of the church.

I just don't see this as what God expresses in scripture. It's as if our wealth has gotten in the way of what church should be.

 

[JonC]

The young pastor's aren't attempting to be "relevant." They preach sound doctrine. What they don't do is inquire as to the well being of their flock. They wait until something goes wrong and then judge as to whether the person or persons are in sin. But, in a few cases the issue would have been nipped in the bud had they just been talking to those in the flock. In other words, they don't do watch care to protect. Instead they react after the sheep has been mauled and then tend to blame the sheep. This blame has been more directed toward women as well. But, when confronted with the issue they say they are too busy preparing the various programs and teachings. My church has 4 full time persons 3 titled pastor's for a congregation of just under 200.

This article hits on the issue of churches functioning as businesses in the methodology. It isn't wrong in its observation of the vast number of churches in America. I have attended a variety of churches from IFCA to CMA to Southern Baptist to (for the last 15 years) North American Baptist. In all of them, the business model described in the article was the function of the church.

I just don't see this as what God expresses in scripture. It's as if our wealth has gotten in the way of what church should be.

Church as it should be is more of a community of believers than many churches will allow.

 

[DaveXR650]

Our church services take on a primary function so that people now expect a great service that attracts them or they go elsewhere. Instead of shepherding, the leadership plans attractive events and then claims that preaching is the main calling of the pastor so calling on people at their homes or contacting them to check on them is not important. Ezekiel 34 comes to mind when pastors don't care about members and let them go since the church is financially doing fine regardless if a person or three go missing.

The young pastor's aren't attempting to be "relevant." They preach sound doctrine. What they don't do is inquire as to the well being of their flock. They wait until something goes wrong and then judge as to whether the person or persons are in sin. But, in a few cases the issue would have been nipped in the bud had they just been talking to those in the flock. In other words, they don't do watch care to protect. Instead they react after the sheep has been mauled and then tend to blame the sheep. This blame has been more directed toward women as well. But, when confronted with the issue they say they are too busy preparing the various programs and teachings. My church has 4 full time persons 3 titled pastor's for a congregation of just under 200.

Man Austin. This is one time I really wish I could disagree with you but what you describe sounds very familiar to me too. I think it's pretty common.

 

[AustinC]

Church as it should be is more of a community of believers than many churches will allow.

I think that it goes both ways. I think American society is comfortable with a business model of consumers. People may like good "theologically sound" sermons, but they don't want pastor's "nosing" in their private affairs. Secret sins should remain...secret. (Think of Ezekiel 8 as an intense comparison.) Pastor's calling on them might make them uncomfortable or they may think they don't have any problems so pastor's should really go "bother" the folks in need. Consequently pastor's just don't push against the tide.
I just listened to a sermon on Ezekiel 34 and 35 from David Legge where he talks about Pastor's saying "Pastor's should afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted." Many comfortable members don't want to be afflicted by Pastor's and many Pastor's are just fine with keeping things comfortable by not inquiring. The business model of growth in numbers must mean we're doing things right seems to be the common approach.
Today a community of believers is fine, as long as no one reveals their secret sins or expresses a spirit of discontent. Just smile and say God bless you as you talk about your favorite sports team and the weather.

 

[AustinC]

Man Austin. This is one time I really wish I could disagree with you but what you describe sounds very familiar to me too. I think it's pretty common.

This makes me sad. My heart longs for authentic fellowship. This is why I have an online Bible study with approximately 6 other men that has been going consistently, every week, for the past 2 years. The men come so we can pray for one another and bear each other's burdens. So many churches around here "take a break" for summer except for Sunday morning service. The guys that come to the online Bible study would be alone in a fallen world if they didn't keep meeting. Half of them are new believers whose temptations are real and they need to be kept accountable. We have a continuous group text chat that is open for any conversation and some of those conversations are raw with the wounds of spiritual war. We need brothers in arms communication or we are defeated by our enemy. This world is wickedly evil. If we don't fight together, we die alone. I can genuinely say I love these brothers as we encourage each other in the fight. We need more people in the church joining in the collective fight. Too many are being defeated in silence at church.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This makes me sad. My heart longs for authentic fellowship. This is why I have an online Bible study with approximately 6 other men that has been going consistently, every week, for the past 2 years. The men come so we can pray for one another and bear each other's burdens. So many churches around here "take a break" for summer except for Sunday morning service. The guys that come to the online Bible study would be alone in a fallen world if they didn't keep meeting. Half of them are new believers whose temptations are real and they need to be kept accountable. We have a continuous group text chat that is open for any conversation and some of those conversations are raw with the wounds of spiritual war. We need brothers in arms communication or we are defeated by our enemy. This world is wickedly evil. If we don't fight together, we die alone. I can genuinely say I love these brothers as we encourage each other in the fight. We need more people in the church joining in the collective fight. Too many are being defeated in silence at church.

Do whatever glorifies Christ… it’s He that will rein forever!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Austin, could you define to me what you mean by new believer and how can you know if they are really sincere.

 

[AustinC]

Austin, could you define to me what you mean by new believer and how can you know if they are really sincere.

Start a new thread. This is about churches functioning like businesses.
Sadly, I see the vast majority of churches in the US functioning like the Rotary club, the Masonic Lodge, the VFW or the Moose Lodge. It's membership to show up for preplanned events that are administrated by the paid staff who attempt to make sure the members needs are met and the membership dues are paid.
Shepherding is a non-factor in today's church.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Start a new thread. This is about churches functioning like businesses.
Sadly, I see the vast majority of churches in the US functioning like the Rotary club, the Masonic Lodge, the VFW or the Moose Lodge. It's membership to show up for preplanned events that are administrated by the paid staff who attempt to make sure the members needs are met and the membership dues are paid.
Shepherding is a non-factor in today's church.

Isn’t that the point…I was taught that true Baptists churches necessitates that a person must have a conversation/regeneration experience in order to be a member of the church. From there, the church body strives to teach the individual what they need to be disciple's of Christ.

 

[AustinC]

Isn’t that the point…I was taught that true Baptists churches necessitates that a person must have a conversation/regeneration experience in order to be a member of the church. From there, the church body strives to teach the individual what they need to be disciple's of Christ.

A business or not?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A business or not?

Not

 

[AustinC]

Not

Why not?
What does membership entail?
Do you take an offering?
Do the paid staff administer and organize activities for the members?
Are there expectations to pay membership dues at 10% of a person's income?
Do you have various programs that you point out where people can volunteer?
What, specifically, makes your organization a church rather than a business?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why not?
What does membership entail?
Do you take an offering?
Do the paid staff administer and organize activities for the members?
Are there expectations to pay membership dues at 10% of a person's income?
Do you have various programs that you point out where people can volunteer?
What, specifically, makes your organization a church rather than a business?

We are Primitive Baptists…. Are you aware of our type of church?

 

[AustinC]

We are Primitive Baptists…. Are you aware of our type of church?

Tell us. Explain your church governance and structure.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That you can look up on the internet.