Is Your Church Really Just a Business?

[AustinC]

I wonder how many churches actually make a "profit" (have significant surplus funds). I've never attended a church that did. It seems we always increased resources to ministries when we had an increase.

The main problem I have is in funding church buildings when the funding is a significant portion of the budget.

This is merely a reallocation of business funds. It doesn't make it a church when you do this. It just means you are reinvesting in the "equipment" you have purchased.

 

[Salty]

Your incapacity to tell us about your church is not my commission to research about your church. I take it that you are merely wasting our time.

I see no problem - in doing our own research

 

[JonC]

This is merely a reallocation of business funds. It doesn't make it a church when you do this. It just means you are reinvesting in the "equipment" you have purchased.

No. It is being a steward of church resources.

Look, we can say a church is a business because they handle money. We can say a church is a business because they have programs designed to reach a community. We can say a church is a business because it has a staff. We can also call a tail a leg, but that doesn't mean a dog has five legs.

You are looking at a couple of things a business has in common with a church to declare a church a business. That is a false conclusion.

And you are wrong about the reallocation of funds. They are not spending a profit but using what ended up not being used for another ministry.

Here is an example of your logic - a dog has four legs. A cat has four legs. A dog is a cat. It is silly logic.

 

[AustinC]

No. It is being a steward of church resources.

Look, we can say a church is a business because they handle money. We can say a church is a business because they have programs designed to reach a community. We can say a church is a business because it has a staff. We can also call a tail a leg, but that doesn't mean a dog has five legs.

You are looking at a couple of things a business has in common with a church to declare a church a business. That is a false conclusion.

And you are wrong about the reallocation of funds. They are not spending a profit but using what ended up not being used for another ministry.

Here is an example of your logic - a dog has four legs. A cat has four legs. A dog is a cat. It is silly logic.

Nope, you are not being logical.
How you ever get to this dog analogy is beyond strange.
The fact is that churches are structured like businesses and they allocate money to other business-like organizations who then (hopefully) spend the money on various activities and services that members consider to be good investments. God uses this in many good ways, but the essence of the organization is still a business model.

 

[Salty]

Nope, you are not being logical.
How you ever get to this dog analogy is beyond strange.
The fact is that churches are structured like businesses and they allocate money to other business-like organizations who then (hopefully) spend the money on various activities and services that members consider to be good investments. God uses this in many good ways, but the essence of the organization is still a business model.

BUT IS IT THE MISSION OF THE CHURCH TO MAKE MONEY?
(hint - the answer is no!)

 

[AustinC]

BUT IS IT THE MISSION OF THE CHURCH TO MAKE MONEY?
(hint - the answer is no!)

Does that matter? It still functions like a business. For goodness sakes, many Baptist churches don't even have elders. Instead, they have a Church Council, a Secretary, and a Financial Advisor/Treasurer.

 

[Salty]

Does that matter? It still functions like a business. ....

Key word "LIKE"

Some Baptist churches have a choir like a Roman Catholic church does
Does that make them Roman Catholic?

YES it does matter -
The purpose of our church is NOT to "make" money.
rather our purpose is to proclaim the Blessed Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.


In addition
Our church does not have elders
and nothing wrong with council, secretary, treasurer

So what is the problem with having those positions?

 

[AustinC]

Key word "LIKE"

Some Baptist churches have a choir like a Roman Catholic church does
Does that make them Roman Catholic?

YES it does matter -
The purpose of our church is NOT to "make" money.
rather our purpose is to proclaim the Blessed Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.


In addition
Our church does not have elders
and nothing wrong with council, secretary, treasurer

So what is the problem with having those positions?

Nothing, if you don't mind your church functioning as a business.

 

[JonC]

Nope, you are not being logical.
How you ever get to this dog analogy is beyond strange.
The fact is that churches are structured like businesses and they allocate money to other business-like organizations who then (hopefully) spend the money on various activities and services that members consider to be good investments. God uses this in many good ways, but the essence of the organization is still a business model.

That's the thing. Churches ARE NOT structured like businesses. They do have business practices, but the comparisons you are making are the typical misunderstandings we hear from those outside the church.

Simply put, a church being a steward of its resources does not constitute a business model.

But even here you are backing off the OP claim - moving from churches being a business to churches using a business model.

 

[Salty]

Nothing, if you don't mind your church functioning as a business.

But we do NOT function as a business

and if you look at our books - that is NO exaggeration

 

[AustinC]

But we do NOT function as a business

and if you look at our books - that is NO exaggeration

So, you don't have a treasurer or meetings to go over the "business" of the church? You won't have a budgetary meeting to review assets versus debits and discuss the maintenance of the building? You don't essentially function like other 503c non-profit organizations?

 

[JonC]

So, you don't have a treasurer or meetings to go over the "business" of the church? You won't have a budgetary meeting to review assets versus debits and discuss the maintenance of the building? You don't essentially function like other 503c non-profit organizations?

The problem is you are defining a business by a community being financially faithful.

Do you have a budget? Do you review your assets and debts? Do you pay your bills? Do you maintain your home?

If so, by your definition, you ate a business.

But in reality, what is a "business"?

"The term business refers to an organization or enterprising entity engaged in commercial, industrial, or professional activities."

If that is the purpose of your church, then yes, your church may very well be a business.

Your error is in defining all churches through the error of your experience with your church.

 

[Salty]

So, you don't have a treasurer or meetings to go over the "business" of the church? You won't have a budgetary meeting to review assets versus debits and discuss the maintenance of the building? You don't essentially function like other 503c non-profit organizations?

So you need to make up your mind -- is a church suppose to operate as a business or not?

 

[AustinC]

So you need to make up your mind -- is a church suppose to operate as a business or not?

No, it's not. A church's function is to encourage and teach the saints while the saints shine the light of Christ to a dark world. The church is where the saints receive their marching orders from the King. It is not run like a 503c non-profit company. Yet, the culture of this world has wrapped it's arms around a business model, thinking efficiency is more important than relationship.
I wonder what Christ would have against us if he wrote our churches a letter.

 

[AustinC]

The problem is you are defining a business by a community being financially faithful.

Do you have a budget? Do you review your assets and debts? Do you pay your bills? Do you maintain your home?

If so, by your definition, you ate a business.

But in reality, what is a "business"?

"The term business refers to an organization or enterprising entity engaged in commercial, industrial, or professional activities."

If that is the purpose of your church, then yes, your church may very well be a business.

Your error is in defining all churches through the error of your experience with your church.

Am I a 503c?

 

[Salty]

Oh brother! Jon, can I come to your house and hit my head against the wall?

 

[JonC]

Am I a 503c?

Nobody is a 503c. The 503c is a section of the Internal Revenue Code.

What you mean is "do I fall under the 503c section of the Internal Revenue Code" (a section that most businesses do not typically fall under)

I don't know. I would guess you are a 3121a. That is, you fall under that section.

 

[AustinC]

Nobody is a 503c. The 503c is a section of the Internal Revenue Code.

What you mean is "do I fall under the 503c section of the Internal Revenue Code" (a section that most businesses do not typically fall under)

I don't know. I would guess you are a 3121a. That is, you fall under that section.

Almost all churches fall in the 503c non-profit business group.
Churches function like businesses and the original article points this out.

 

[Salty]

So how much money money did your church make last year?

 

[AustinC]

So how much money money did your church make last year?

No idea, but if I go to their annual business meeting in a week or so, I can find out. It's enough to hire four full-time employees with healthcare and a retirement package with a membership of under 200 people.