It is impossible to convince a Mormon that he is wrong!

[The Biblicist]

Next passage of Scripture:


Matthew 19:16-22
English Standard Version (ESV)

The Rich Young Man

16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

25When the discipes heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"

Some use this passage of Scripture as a litmus test for salvation: you must be willing to give everything and everyone for Christ if you are REALLY a true Christian.

Correct. It is really a litmus test of what it means to keep the law according to God's definition rather than the definition of this rich young ruler. The rich young ruler claimed to be "good" claimed to have kept all the commandments and yet did not understand he was claiming to be "good" as God but "there is none good but one and that is God." The command to go sell all that he has and give to the poor" - would require complete dependent faith in God to sustain him since he would have nothing but God if he obeyed this. It would require him to love his neighbor as himself to give all his riches to the poor. To obey the command "come and follow me" would require faith in Christ as His Savior. This test would also determine his TRUE RICHES as well as demonstrate obedience to the first five commandments toward God and the second five commandments toward men. However, lost men are RICH IN SELF WORTH and no man has this capability to turn against themselves any more than a camel can go through the eye of a needle as this is impossible for men because they are totally depraved and it is only possibly by the power of God.

 

[The Biblicist]

I’m pretty sure that here He is speaking literally of actual toddlers and infants, not figuratively of child-like adults. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

You are wrong! Note the words "YOU turn and BECOME LIKE children"


The contextual "YOU" are his apostles. The words "become like" are terms of a simile. Again, he is simply using children to teach spiritual truth about the children of God.

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

14 So it is not the will of my[a] Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

The littles ones were old enough to willingly to come to him, they are not infants. Second, "not....one of these little ones should perish" if applied your way would assume every single one of them eventually embraced the gospel and were saved OR they all died before the age of discernability so that none
rejected the gospel because "NOT.....ONE....should perish."

He is simply using literal children to illustrate the characteristics of spritiual children none of which shall perish.

Matthew 19

14 but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”[/I][/B]

This does not affirm that ALL CHILDREN grow up and are saved because hell would be empty if that were the case. This affirms that out of that category "of such" there are some in heaven who presumably died as children. Baptists would assume they are those chosen by God, his elect, while not all "of such" which continued to live and grow up as adults were such elect.

 

[Wittenberger]

You are wrong! Note the words "YOU turn and BECOME LIKE children"


The contextual "YOU" are his apostles. The words "become like" are terms of a simile. Again, he is simply using children to teach spiritual truth about the children of God.






The littles ones were old enough to willingly to come to him, they are not infants. Second, "not....one of these little ones should perish" if applied your way would assume every single one of them eventually embraced the gospel and were saved OR they all died before the age of discernability so that none
rejected the gospel because "NOT.....ONE....should perish."

He is simply using literal children to illustrate the characteristics of spritiual children none of which shall perish.




This does not affirm that ALL CHILDREN grow up and are saved because hell would be empty if that were the case. This affirms that out of that category "of such" there are some in heaven who presumably died as children. Baptists would assume they are those chosen by God, his elect, while not all "of such" which continued to live and grow up as adults were such elect.

Most of what you say seems very plausible. The child in verse 2 could have been an older child. But the "little children" in the later verses were "brought" to Jesus. The later verses do not sound like Christ is using metaphors or similes. Verse 2, yes.

And another point: the verse above says that it is not God's will that any should perish. It isn't God's will that any human being perish, but many do.

 

[The Biblicist]

But the "little children" in the later verses were "brought" to Jesus. The later verses do not sound like Christ is using metaphors or similes.

The same children that were brought to him he says don't forbid them to "come" to him in the very next verse.

And another point: the verse above says that it is not God's will that any should perish. It isn't God's will that any human being perish, but many do.

Hence, that leaves them in no different category than anyone else.

 

[Wittenberger]

The same children that were brought to him he says don't forbid them to "come" to him in the very next verse.



Hence, that leaves them in no different category than anyone else.

I think you are reading too much into this verse. If the disciples forbade parents to bring their babies to Jesus and Jesus says not to forbid them to come, he didn't mean just the ones who could walk.

The point is that they are "little children": I don't think anyone would classify an eight year old as a "little child". An eight year old is a child.

Bottom line: he was talking about children in the later verses, not adults. "Little children" can be partakers of the kingdom of heaven.

I am in agreement with you on the last point. All children are in the same category as adults. We are all stained by original sin and need a Savior. There is no "Age of Accountability".

 

[The Biblicist]

I think you are reading too much into this verse. If the disciples forbade parents to bring their babies to Jesus and Jesus says not to forbid them to come, he didn't mean just the ones who could walk.

The point is that they are "little children": I don't think anyone would classify an eight year old as a "little child". An eight year old is a child.

Bottom line: he was talking about children in the later verses, not adults. "Little children" can be partakers of the kingdom of heaven.

I am in agreement with you on the last point. All children are in the same category as adults. We are all stained by original sin and need a Savior. There is no "Age of Accountability".

The very same Greek term is translated "damsel" in Mark 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel <3813> is not dead, but sleepeth.

The very same term is used to describe children sitting in the market place who are old enough to talk and mock others:

Lu 7:32 They are like unto children <3813> sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

I don't think you have any absolute proof that demands this text must mean they are infants. However, the term can definitely include "infants."

 

[Yeshua1]

Below is the next passage of Scripture in our study of the New Testament.



Matthew 13
New International Version (NIV)

The Parable of the Sower

13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

The meaning of the Parable of the Sower

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”


This is one of the most famous of Jesus’ parables. I have heard some theologians state that this parable applies only to the Jews under the Old Covenant. It has no relevance to Christian doctrine.

Others use this parable as proof text that Christians can lose their salvation. I will let you the reader form you own opinion.

First 3 classes stayed sinners and lost, only 4th group were the saved by the grace of God...

 

[Yeshua1]

Next passage of Scripture:


In Matthew chapters 18 and 19 our Lord makes several references to children and specifically, little children. I’m pretty sure that here He is speaking literally of actual toddlers and infants, not figuratively of child-like adults. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

These verses are not a discussion of infant baptism, but it is interesting to listen to Christ talk about the spiritual status of little children.

Matthew 18
English Standard Version (ESV)

2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

14 So it is not the will of my[a] Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Matthew 19

14 but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”


I find this last verse very interesting because it does not say that the kingdom of heaven belongs to those who are “like” children but to little children; “of such” refers back to “little children” in the first part of the sentence.

This is not a proof text for infant baptism, but the simple interpretation of this verse makes it clear that little children are partakers of the Kingdom of heaven.

NO! proof that God is saying that JUST as little children trust completely in thier earthly fathers, those of the Kingdom of God need to and will trust completely their heavenly Father to be saved !

 

[Wittenberger]

The very same Greek term is translated "damsel" in Mark 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel <3813> is not dead, but sleepeth.

The very same term is used to describe children sitting in the market place who are old enough to talk and mock others:

Lu 7:32 They are like unto children <3813> sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

I don't think you have any absolute proof that demands this text must mean they are infants. However, the term can definitely include "infants."

I am not insisting they must be infants, just that infants are not excluded. In Luke the KJV uses the word "babes".

 

[Wittenberger]

NO! proof that God is saying that JUST as little children trust completely in thier earthly fathers, those of the Kingdom of God need to and will trust completely their heavenly Father to be saved !

You are assuming that ALL the verses are similes. The first verse definitely is, but there is no indication that Christ's disciples were forbidding "child-like" adults from coming to him. They were little children, however you want to define "little children", not adults. You are reading into Scripture.

 

[Wittenberger]

First 3 classes stayed sinners and lost, only 4th group were the saved by the grace of God...

So you do not agree with your fellow Baptist, Biblicist, that the Parable of the Sower is talking about Christians only?

 

[The Biblicist]

So you do not agree with your fellow Baptist, Biblicist, that the Parable of the Sower is talking about Christians only?

No, reread his statement. He is saying exactly what I said. The first three represent religious lost while the fourth soil represents only the saved and variations between the saved in fruit production.