It's JUDGMENT TIME!!

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

________________________________________
JJHebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Here we see the soul and spirit divided.

I Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


HP: You see nothing but two words. You ‘see’ nothing ‘divided’ in any definable terms, unless you feel that you have the abilities God alone possess. You offered me no evidence whatsoever from Scripture any definable and distinguishing differences between these two terms.

JJ: Here we see that man has three parts. And it says "may" God sanctify you entirely, which says we are not yet. There's a part of us that is not sanctified yet. We know our spirit's are saved at the moment of salvation by grace through faith. So that leaves our soul and body in an unsaved state.

HP: This is nothing more than your personal speculation, without one iota of Scriptural evidence to back up your conclusions. You attempt to place a constraint upon the meanings of words, such as ‘may,’ that drive your conclusions to an unreasonable and totally unsupported conclusion. I ‘may’ hope that you are healthy and well today. Does that serve as proof that you are not already healthy or well?

 

[Claudia_T]

I dont know where you guys get this idea about soul and spirit and one is saved and the other is not,,, or whatever. It is just not biblical.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

It is mere false distinctions and the private and narrowly applied interpretation of words as we see playing out here that drive most all false doctrinal beliefs. The cults are masters of such deception.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SpiritualMADman:If you'd like to read my 'working hypothesis' you can do so at:

HP: Thanks but no thanks. If it is not based upon clearly understandable truth, it will be only a man made hypothesis, something sound doctrine is not based upon. Show me from Scripture and or solid irrefutable truths on this thread, and I will try to respond. Thanks!

 

[J. Jump]

HP the problem that you have is you don't want to define words because then it will ruin your man-made doctrine.

The Bible is of no private interpretation. It doesn't matter what you think, what I think or what Joe Blow thinks. We are not God and therefore are not in a position to assign anything to God's Words. However man tries to do it all the time.

I have laid out clear Biblical evidence that the soul is not saved at this time. You choose to ignore it, because it doesn't meet your criteria, even though it meets God's criteria.

Compare Scripture with Scripture and you will know what God intended to say, because we have the Holy Spirit to teach us and help us understand what God meant when He said xyz.

I can't help that you can't see man is body, soul and spirit, or why you are choosing not to see it. But just becuase that is the case, doesn't make it false. And the same goes for Cluadia.

Those are three completely separate intitites. If they were the same thing the same Greek word would be used to speak of them. However separate Greek words are used. You find the meaning of those words by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Scripture will tell you exactly what it means.

The cults are masters of such deception.

Ah now we get down to the being called a cult. It took a little longer than normal.

Can you please give me one example of a cult that says Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100% man and came to this earth to die a substitutionary death and that His shed blood can secure the eternal destiny of a believer.

I don't know of a single cult that preaches salvation by grace through faith.

Why is it that just because someone doesn't agree with your beliefs and can so you Scripture to the contrary (whether you want to see it or not is beside the point) you have to sink to the level of calling them names?

 

[gekko]

J.Jump said "I can't help that you can't see man is body, soul and spirit, or why you are choosing not to see it. But just becuase that is the case, doesn't make it false. And the same goes for Cluadia.

Those are three completely separate intitites. If they were the same thing the same Greek word would be used to speak of them. However separate Greek words are used. You find the meaning of those words by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Scripture will tell you exactly what it means."

J.Jump is correct here - its different - but all one. like the trinity - because we are made in the image of God right?

look at 1John 5:6-8 "6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

If Jesus was water and blood, not just water, but blood also, and spirit... wouldn't we be as well? yes. according to scripture we are compiled of water, blood, and spirit. body, soul, and spirit.

no?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ:Why is it that just because someone doesn't agree with your beliefs and can so you Scripture to the contrary (whether you want to see it or not is beside the point) you have to sink to the level of calling them names?

HP: Please document where I called anyone names other than to show forth a clear practice of the cults. Did I say you were a cult? Neither did I imply it. I simply stated a practice of the cults. Because I pointed out that you are using the same tactics as a cult in no wise is defining or calling you as such.

Your post is an apparent smoke screen to cover for any lack of solid evidence as to what this separation of soul and spirit means. If you have some real enlightenment, set it forth clearly, so the wayfaring man, though a fool, cannot err therein. If you cannot, admit that your ideas are nothing more than man-made conjecture, and are the makings of your own private interpretation.

 

[gekko]

heavenly pilgrim: did you read my above post? it explains the water, blood, spirit - body, soul, spirit.

note the trinity - they are all separate - yet all one.

note the humans - separate - water, blood, spirit - yet all one. we have skin - we have blood - we have spirit.

i can see why J.Jump is saying "why is it so hard for you to understand??"

because we are made in the image of God. God is three separate - yet all one.

therefore would we not be three separate - yet all one?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Geeko: J.Jump is correct here - its different - but all one. like the trinity - because we are made in the image of God right?

Geeko,

It is not that man is not made up of soul and spirit that is in question. The question here is if in fact there is any cognizable distinction we can make between the two, that would allow one to draw a clear line of distinction between the two as JJ is doing. I say there is not. Scripture uses both words to depict the inner man, the part of man that is eternal in nature. If you have no other source, read the dictionary. The word soul and spirit are often used to define each other. They are used interchangeably in Scripture in like manner.

If you have some clear evidence as to this purported distinction, present it to the list. If you do not, do not take JJ’s conjecture as proof until you have solid evidence. This again is not to be understood as I am saying there is no distinction, but that I do not believe there is any cognizable distinction made understandable to us in this finite world utilizing the evidence or lack thereof we are bound to limit our understanding to, unless we have a preconceived notion we are trying to build support for, such as possibly a sinning religion.

[ May 19, 2006, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Heavenly Pilgrim ]

 

[J. Jump]

Because I pointed out that you are using the same tactics as a cult in no wise is defining or calling you as such.

Call me crazy, but I don't know of very many people that would say that you weren't at least implying that our beliefs are cultish. If it talks like a cult and it walks like a cult then it must be a cult.

It is obvious that you are trying to get others to see us as a cult. You just try to slicken it up so it doesn't make it obvious, but people know how to read between the lines.

Your post is an apparent smoke screen to cover for any lack of solid evidence

No it is quite solid, you just choose to say it is not once again so you can spew your philosophical mumbo jumbo about how we can't know anything.

Sorry but that's just plain not the truth. If you want to buy it and sell it to others then so be it, but you'll have to answer for it one day just as I will have to answer for my beliefs.

I'll stick with just the Bible. God says its sufficient and so I'll take His Word. He hasn't let me down so far.

 

[rooster25]

is repentance something we do or something God gives?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Hi JJ,
Once again I will ask you to show one solitary Scripture or any solid evidence of the clear meaning of the distinction you say exists between the soul and the spirit. I am NOT looking for Scriptures that merely utilize the two words, but Scripture that define them in cognizable and clearly distinguishable terms. So far you, nor anyone else on this list to my knowledge, have provided one single reference that explains THE NATURE" of any distinction that might exist between these words. We are just getting meaningless conjecture.

Sure we see two terms in operation. Enlighten us with Scriptural evidence as to the clear distinction of these two terms.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Rooster: is repentance something we do or something God gives?

HP: We must do something to repent, and in a sense, God grants repentance. God is the judge of when it meets His criteria for sincere repentance. By stating that He grants us repentance, it basically means that He accepts it. Without man and God both being involved, it is meaningless.

Repentance is the work God calls upon man to do in order to receive forgiveness of sins and a hope of eternal life. Still, as I pointed out, it is God that judges it as sincere and accepts it as the fulfillment of the condition He has set forth in order to receive a sure hope of salvation.

 

[gekko]

animals have souls - according to scripture - i'll find that verse somewhere..."Revelation 16:3 - And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea."

but do they have spirits?

our spirit is the breath of life God has given to us.

im not totally knowledgable on what is what...

but why would the bible mention both soul and spirit if they weren't different?
-----------

Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

the soul can be killed - the spirit, when made alive - cannot be killed - because it is God's.

Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Romans 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
(notice it does not say the Spirit testifies with our soul...)

go to www.bibleontheweb.com and search for the word "soul" and "spirit" in the new testament - there are only a few verses where the two words are used in the same verse...

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by rooster25:
is repentance something we do or something God gives?

repentence is something God gives but if we arent repentant then that means we never accepted the gift.

 

[Claudia_T]

JJump

I believe body and spirit (breath) equals man's soul. I just dont understand what that has to do with anything one way or the other... as far as salvation goes.

 

[rooster25]

just seemes from my study repentance is from God...acts5...and repentance as far as salvation is concerned act2:38 is a change of mind about Christ see all of acts 2...which lines up w/ john 3:16....Acts 16:33...rom 5:1....thanks rusty

 

[gekko]

James 5:20 - Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

that would be the fruits of repentence. right?

1 Peter 1:9 - Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 1:22 - Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

--------
claudia - do animals have spirits? if not. please explain this verse:
Revelation 16:3 - And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

"every living soul died in the sea"
if animals do not have spirits - how do they have souls (taking into consideration you said body and spirit make up the soul) ??

 

[J. Jump]

Claudia I would encourage you to listen to a series on my website www.1-heart.org/developing_perspective.htm - it does a much better job of explaining it than I can.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Heavenly Pilgrim: If you have some clear evidence as to this purported distinction, present it to the list.

He presented quite a lengthy list, but you seem to choose to ignore it. You can lead a horse to water...

Teaching that man is a dichotomous being is the teaching of Natural Evolution; it's the religion of Secular Humanism.

Teaching that man is a trichotomous being is the teaching of the Scriptures.

I will repeat the questions posed by Gekko, since no one seems willing to answer them:

Animals have souls; the Bible says so. Do they also have spirits?

Someone pointed out that man, like God is a trinity. Well, did God the Father come down to die on the cross? How about the Holy Spirit?

Why or why not?