It's that blasted flag's fault

[carpro]

Silliness. The flag could only be a treasonous offense if it's flown in opposition to the current flag of the Union. if it was the AMERICAN flag at the time, it couldn't be treasonous.

It wasn't treasonous. Even the Union at the time recognized it as the flag of an enemy, but not the banner of traitors.

Your lowly opinion means nothing. History settled the matter long ago. The Union tried no confederat leaders for treason. They had no case under the Constitution and they knew it. One cannot commit treason against something of which they are not a part. The confederate states were no longer a part of the union and eventually had to be readmitted to the union.

 

[Use of Time]

To some degree, I agree with this sentiment. Since we should not treat these trivial matters as more important than loving people, we need to let the Confederate battle flag go into the dustbin of history instead of embracing something that was used by the Dixiecrats to oppose the Civil Rights Movement.


1.) why do you assume dishonest motives simply because he has taken a position with which you disagree? He has given scriptural reasons for it and is appealing to the command of Jesus to love both our neighbors and our enemies.

2.) How in the world is he damaging his Christian witness by making an appeal to love others by deferring to those who have very negative associations with the flag? There is ample historical precedent for folks to see the battle flag as symbol of oppression. And to anticipate the response I have already seen in this discussion, the Christian church did not use the cross as a primary symbol for the first couple of hundred years. It would be happy to remove the cross if it was widely associate with oppression, even though it is an element of the gospel message. The battle flag is not part of the Christian message.

Everyone is going to let Zaac string them along but this post deserves some credit. It was well said but I have a feeling it will be received...poorly. Kudos either way.

 

[Zaac]

Good question for you to answer. If the police, who bear and salute the US flag are terrorists, as you claim, killing blacks, what should be do with "old glory?"

Send old glory on to glory and get her off any federal property. We are the United States.

The guys who wanted slaves and that whole Confederate States thing lost.

 

[Alcott]

Send old glory on to glory and get her off any federal property. We are the United States.

"Glory" is obviously not the United States, then. Nevertheless, that's evasive of the question. Did that US flag fly over "a time when white people enslaved, lynched, hanged, raped and burned Blacks?" And if you're going to cop out and say adding the last 2 stars makes it another flag, that's nonsense.

The guys who wanted slaves and that whole Confederate States thing lost.

While we could debate how slavery would have ended without the war the seceding states lost [like Brazil in the 1890's?], and the losses of hundreds of thousands on both sides, nothing changes the history of our founders-- including that 4 of the first 5 presidents were slave owners-- the constitutional convention's agreement to not 'touch' the slavery issue for 20 years to come, and the string of compromises that allowed slavery to expand to some new territories... all under the "stars & stripes," the US flag. And those states that lost (not them exclusively) won the right to separate the races by law for 2-3 generations; and that also under what flag?

 

[Zaac]

"Glory" is obviously not the United States, then.

I didn't say Glory was the US.

Nevertheless, that's evasive of the question. Did that US flag fly over "a time when white people enslaved, lynched, hanged, raped and burned Blacks?" And if you're going to cop out and say adding the last 2 stars makes it another flag, that's nonsense.

Is that the US flag that's flying today? If it's not, your attempt to make a point is falling waaaaaaaaaaaay short. :laugh:

While we could debate how slavery would have ended without the war the seceding states lost [like Brazil in the 1890's?], and the losses of hundreds of thousands on both sides, nothing changes the history of our founders-- including that 4 of the first 5 presidents were slave owners-- the constitutional convention's agreement to not 'touch' the slavery issue for 20 years to come, and the string of compromises that allowed slavery to expand to some new territories... all under the "stars & stripes," the US flag. And those states that lost (not them exclusively) won the right to separate the races by law for 2-3 generations; and that also under what flag?

Is that the flag that's flying over a statehouse somewhere today? NOPE. SO again, your attempt to make a point falls waaaaaaaaaaaaay short.

 

[carpro]

To some degree, I agree with this sentiment. Since we should not treat these trivial matters as more important than loving people, we need to let the Confederate battle flag go into the dustbin of history instead of embracing something that was used by the Dixiecrats to oppose the Civil Rights Movement.

When the hearts of men change, all symbols of oppression will go into the ductbin of history. When the hearts of men change, they won't be bothered by anything so trivial as a flag.

Just because a battle flag has been adopted by those who use it as a symbol for evil purposes, doesn't make the flag evil. If it did, you would have to consign the flag of the United States to the same dustbin, for all the evil organizations that claim it as their symbol.

Your reasoning simply makes no sense. It's a piece of colored cloth that is a part of our history. Banning it won't make it go away and will not make black people any more free than they already are. It'll go away on it's own...when it's time.

All this because CNN had to stir up an issue that had nothing at all to do with these racially motivated killings. The corrupt media is pulling your strings. Amazing. :BangHead:

 

[Jedi Knight]

Cover your eyes! 1969 Charger "General Lee" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKaeeKOHTlk

 

[Alcott]

I didn't say Glory was the US.

But you did not say what is was (or is). What is (or was) it?

Is that the US flag that's flying today? If it's not, your attempt to make a point is falling waaaaaaaaaaaay short.

The one often called "stars & stripes?" Yeah, that's it.

Is that the flag that's flying over a statehouse somewhere today? NOPE. SO again, your attempt to make a point falls waaaaaaaaaaaaay short.

What's falling short is your elastic attempt to confuse the issue. The US flag is flying over or beside government buildings today. And what is appropriate to fly over a state capitol is the state flag.

So, let's try it this way...

Yes or No: Was slavery legally practiced under the US flag more than 17x as long as under the Confederate flag?

Yes or No: Did the government represented by the US flag legally affirm racial segregation for more than 6 decades?

 

[Jedi Knight]

The Duke boys had to pull their flag here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZwfXUURS3g EVERY shot is so you cannot see the rebel flag on top.....Political Correctness!

 

[Zaac]

But you did not say what is was (or is). What is (or was) it?

It wasn't my quote so why would I be saying what it was.

The one often called "stars & stripes?" Yeah, that's it.

Okay.

What's falling short is your elastic attempt to confuse the issue. The US flag is flying over or beside government buildings today. And what is appropriate to fly over a state capitol is the state flag.

What's falling short is your attempt to justify this symbol or raping and pillaging and hanging and lynching and murdering and enslavement of black people. So why is it so important for some white people to have such a hateful symbol flying over a state house? What is it about some of you that has to take every opportunity to try to promote your belief in slavery by supporting the flying of the symbol of that oppressive time?

Why are you loving Christians in such desperate need to have this symbol of the very thing that Jesus brought His people out of displayed? Just wicked, wicked, wicked, But then again, that's why God shall let your enemies rule over ya.

So, let's try it this way...

Yes or No: Was slavery legally practiced under the US flag more than 17x as long as under the Confederate flag?

SO let's try it this way because your mind doesn't seem to be able to keep up tonight. Was slavery legally practiced underneath the current flag that the US flies? No, so your attempt to make a point here again falls way short.

Yes or No: Did the government represented by the US flag legally affirm racial segregation for more than 6 decades?

Nope. Racists white people did that.

 

[Alcott]

Was slavery legally practiced underneath the current flag that the US flies? No, so your attempt to make a point here again falls way short.

Yes or No: Was slavery legally practiced under the US flag more than 17x as long as under the Confederate flag?

Nope. Racists white people did that.

Yes or No: Did the government represented by the US flag legally affirm racial segregation for more than 6 decades?

 

[Jedi Knight]

Yes or No: Was slavery legally practiced under the US flag more than 17x as long as under the Confederate flag?



Yes or No: Did the government represented by the US flag legally affirm racial segregation for more than 6 decades?

Ask him if only white people have the racist gene.

 

[wpe3bql]

of the Northern carpetbaggers and the constant watchdog attitude of Congress

Which, BTW, was basically controlled by the Republican Party.

 

[Baptist Believer]

As it often happens in human events, the fight in this thread is not actually about the issue in the original post and even less about what is true, helpful and honorable. Moreover, the call of Jesus to love our brothers and sisters in Christ, our neighbors, and even our enemies has been carefully ignored in favor of winning arguments, preserving the status quo, or preventing the “other” from getting their way.

There's a whole lot of blame to go around. Zaac has not been at his best for a while now, but there are quite a few people here who take special pleasure in attacking and provoking him. Those of you who think you are wise should be working to defuse the situation and dealing with Zaac more gently, winning him over with kindness. I know there are some of you (one has actually contacted me for my opinion) who are concerned about how you are handling the conflict, and I ask you to see if you can work toward reconciliation.

It is no wonder people are not interested in hearing about Jesus after seeing the way Christians act.

Beyond the question of love, there are a number of appeals being made to logic. Unfortunately, that “logic” tends to ignore inconvenient facts:

1.) “History can’t be revised by hiding [the Confederate battle flag].”
I don’t think anyone is advocating historical revisionism.

2.) One of the popular arguments in this thread is that the flag of the United States represented a nation that upheld slavery and segregation. (See here, here, here, here, here, and here.)
This argument shows a baffling denial of the fact that the United States flag represents a country that no longer supports slavery or segregation. The Confederate flags - all of them - always represented an institution that supported slavery, and has since been used to support segregation and white supremacy. It is not accident that George Wallace and the Dixiecrats revived the use of the battle flag after WWII as a symbol of their opposition to any attempt of the federal government to weaken or eliminate segregation.

3.) It has been claimed that those who think it is most appropriate for the Confederate battle flag to be retired from public life are weakening their witness for political gain, are "trash", or are unthinking puppets of the news media.
Of course these are nothing but ad hominem arguments that only highlights how weak the position of the pro-battle flag supporters actually is. Moreover, it reveals a lack of character because it clearly demonstrates that the person who uses the argument is more concerned about winning an argument that being honest. If you are a Christian who uses ad hominem arguments, you are blatantly ignoring Jesus' call to love one another as He has loved us.

4.) Another argument that has been advanced is that the Confederate leadership was not treasonous. Evidence for this assertion is that "no confederate leader was ever tried for treason." The argument was extended to assert that "the Union at the time recognized it as the flag of the enemy, but not the banner of traitors" and that the Union leadership "had no case under the Constitution and they knew it."
That assertion ignores history. There were a number of reasons why Confederate leaders were not tried for treason, but none of them had to do with concerns about the Constitution. Speaking of the Constitution, the 14th Amendment specifically prohibited former Confederate leaders from holding public office. Putting someone on trial for treason could be considered double jeopardy, at least in the opinion of Salmon P. Chase, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

5.) It has been asserted that when people become spiritual enough, "they won't be bothered by anything so trivial as a flag."
There's some truth there. So those of you who consider yourselves spiritually mature, divest yourself of that trivial Confederate battle flag for the sake of those who are less spiritual. Why in the world would Christians want to hold onto a symbol of something that is not in the gospel message when it is offensive to those who may not be as spiritual? One can't simply say "they" need to get over it since the flag was officially and exclusively used by a government that endorsed slavery. Moreover, the use of the flag was revived after WWII but Southern politicians to demonstrate their opposition to full civil rights and the integration of the descendants of enslaved Americans into mainstream society. How could a Christian support that? Obviously, many have and many do, but Jesus is calling us into something better.

6.) There is an unspoken current in this thread that getting rid of the battle flag is somehow giving in to the bad guys (liberals, race baiters, African-Americans, Zaac, the media, etc.) or rejecting one's own proud Southern heritage.
In regard to the bad guys, we need to do what is right and let God deal with others. In regard to our Southern heritage, as someone who can track my family lineage back to Jamestown with all of my American ancestors living exclusively in the South and having fought on the Confederate side of the Civil War, I can assure you that you can affirm all that is right and good with your heritage and let go of some of the symbols of it. The call of Jesus pulls me into a new family that is not defined by ethnicity, ancestry, economic status, skin color, etc. We all need to get our priorities straight.

 

[Zaac]

As it often happens in human events, the fight in this thread is not actually about the issue in the original post and even less about what is true, helpful and honorable. Moreover, the call of Jesus to love our brothers and sisters in Christ, our neighbors, and even our enemies has been carefully ignored in favor of winning arguments, preserving the status quo, or preventing the “other” from getting their way.

There's a whole lot of blame to go around. Zaac has not been at his best for a while now, but there are quite a few people here who take special pleasure in attacking and provoking him. Those of you who think you are wise should be working to defuse the situation and dealing with Zaac more gently, winning him over with kindness. I know there are some of you (one has actually contacted me for my opinion) who are concerned about how you are handling the conflict, and I ask you to see if you can work toward reconciliation.

It is no wonder people are not interested in hearing about Jesus after seeing the way Christians act.

Beyond the question of love, there are a number of appeals being made to logic. Unfortunately, that “logic” tends to ignore inconvenient facts:

1.) “History can’t be revised by hiding [the Confederate battle flag].”
I don’t think anyone is advocating historical revisionism.

2.) One of the popular arguments in this thread is that the flag of the United States represented a nation that upheld slavery and segregation. (See here, here, here, here, here, and here.)
This argument shows a baffling denial of the fact that the United States flag represents a country that no longer supports slavery or segregation. The Confederate flags - all of them - always represented an institution that supported slavery, and has since been used to support segregation and white supremacy. It is not accident that George Wallace and the Dixiecrats revived the use of the battle flag after WWII as a symbol of their opposition to any attempt of the federal government to weaken or eliminate segregation.

3.) It has been claimed that those who think it is most appropriate for the Confederate battle flag to be retired from public life are weakening their witness for political gain, are "trash", or are unthinking puppets of the news media.
Of course these are nothing but ad hominem arguments that only highlights how weak the position of the pro-battle flag supporters actually is. Moreover, it reveals a lack of character because it clearly demonstrates that the person who uses the argument is more concerned about winning an argument that being honest. If you are a Christian who uses ad hominem arguments, you are blatantly ignoring Jesus' call to love one another as He has loved us.

4.) Another argument that has been advanced is that the Confederate leadership was not treasonous. Evidence for this assertion is that "no confederate leader was ever tried for treason." The argument was extended to assert that "the Union at the time recognized it as the flag of the enemy, but not the banner of traitors" and that the Union leadership "had no case under the Constitution and they knew it."
That assertion ignores history. There were a number of reasons why Confederate leaders were not tried for treason, but none of them had to do with concerns about the Constitution. Speaking of the Constitution, the 14th Amendment specifically prohibited former Confederate leaders from holding public office. Putting someone on trial for treason could be considered double jeopardy, at least in the opinion of Salmon P. Chase, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

5.) It has been asserted that when people become spiritual enough, "they won't be bothered by anything so trivial as a flag."
There's some truth there. So those of you who consider yourselves spiritually mature, divest yourself of that trivial Confederate battle flag for the sake of those who are less spiritual. Why in the world would Christians want to hold onto a symbol of something that is not in the gospel message when it is offensive to those who may not be as spiritual? One can't simply say "they" need to get over it since the flag was officially and exclusively used by a government that endorsed slavery. Moreover, the use of the flag was revived after WWII but Southern politicians to demonstrate their opposition to full civil rights and the integration of the descendants of enslaved Americans into mainstream society. How could a Christian support that? Obviously, many have and many do, but Jesus is calling us into something better.

6.) There is an unspoken current in this thread that getting rid of the battle flag is somehow giving in to the bad guys (liberals, race baiters, African-Americans, Zaac, the media, etc.) or rejecting one's own proud Southern heritage.
In regard to the bad guys, we need to do what is right and let God deal with others. In regard to our Southern heritage, as someone who can track my family lineage back to Jamestown with all of my American ancestors living exclusively in the South and having fought on the Confederate side of the Civil War, I can assure you that you can affirm all that is right and good with your heritage and let go of some of the symbols of it. The call of Jesus pulls me into a new family that is not defined by ethnicity, ancestry, economic status, skin color, etc. We all need to get our priorities straight.

:applause::applause:

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

As it often happens in human events, the fight in this thread is not actually about the issue in the original post and even less about what is true, helpful and honorable. Moreover, the call of Jesus to love our brothers and sisters in Christ, our neighbors, and even our enemies has been carefully ignored in favor of winning arguments, preserving the status quo, or preventing the “other” from getting their way.

There's a whole lot of blame to go around. Zaac has not been at his best for a while now, but there are quite a few people here who take special pleasure in attacking and provoking him. Those of you who think you are wise should be working to defuse the situation and dealing with Zaac more gently, winning him over with kindness. I know there are some of you (one has actually contacted me for my opinion) who are concerned about how you are handling the conflict, and I ask you to see if you can work toward reconciliation.

It is no wonder people are not interested in hearing about Jesus after seeing the way Christians act.

Beyond the question of love, there are a number of appeals being made to logic. Unfortunately, that “logic” tends to ignore inconvenient facts:

1.) “History can’t be revised by hiding [the Confederate battle flag].”
I don’t think anyone is advocating historical revisionism.

2.) One of the popular arguments in this thread is that the flag of the United States represented a nation that upheld slavery and segregation. (See here, here, here, here, here, and here.)
This argument shows a baffling denial of the fact that the United States flag represents a country that no longer supports slavery or segregation. The Confederate flags - all of them - always represented an institution that supported slavery, and has since been used to support segregation and white supremacy. It is not accident that George Wallace and the Dixiecrats revived the use of the battle flag after WWII as a symbol of their opposition to any attempt of the federal government to weaken or eliminate segregation.

3.) It has been claimed that those who think it is most appropriate for the Confederate battle flag to be retired from public life are weakening their witness for political gain, are "trash", or are unthinking puppets of the news media.
Of course these are nothing but ad hominem arguments that only highlights how weak the position of the pro-battle flag supporters actually is. Moreover, it reveals a lack of character because it clearly demonstrates that the person who uses the argument is more concerned about winning an argument that being honest. If you are a Christian who uses ad hominem arguments, you are blatantly ignoring Jesus' call to love one another as He has loved us.

4.) Another argument that has been advanced is that the Confederate leadership was not treasonous. Evidence for this assertion is that "no confederate leader was ever tried for treason." The argument was extended to assert that "the Union at the time recognized it as the flag of the enemy, but not the banner of traitors" and that the Union leadership "had no case under the Constitution and they knew it."
That assertion ignores history. There were a number of reasons why Confederate leaders were not tried for treason, but none of them had to do with concerns about the Constitution. Speaking of the Constitution, the 14th Amendment specifically prohibited former Confederate leaders from holding public office. Putting someone on trial for treason could be considered double jeopardy, at least in the opinion of Salmon P. Chase, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

5.) It has been asserted that when people become spiritual enough, "they won't be bothered by anything so trivial as a flag."
There's some truth there. So those of you who consider yourselves spiritually mature, divest yourself of that trivial Confederate battle flag for the sake of those who are less spiritual. Why in the world would Christians want to hold onto a symbol of something that is not in the gospel message when it is offensive to those who may not be as spiritual? One can't simply say "they" need to get over it since the flag was officially and exclusively used by a government that endorsed slavery. Moreover, the use of the flag was revived after WWII but Southern politicians to demonstrate their opposition to full civil rights and the integration of the descendants of enslaved Americans into mainstream society. How could a Christian support that? Obviously, many have and many do, but Jesus is calling us into something better.

6.) There is an unspoken current in this thread that getting rid of the battle flag is somehow giving in to the bad guys (liberals, race baiters, African-Americans, Zaac, the media, etc.) or rejecting one's own proud Southern heritage.
In regard to the bad guys, we need to do what is right and let God deal with others. In regard to our Southern heritage, as someone who can track my family lineage back to Jamestown with all of my American ancestors living exclusively in the South and having fought on the Confederate side of the Civil War, I can assure you that you can affirm all that is right and good with your heritage and let go of some of the symbols of it. The call of Jesus pulls me into a new family that is not defined by ethnicity, ancestry, economic status, skin color, etc. We all need to get our priorities straight.

Very well said. I thought Moore's article was excellent. As a southerner who can say ya'll with the best of them, I have no need to see or wear the Confederate battle flag to affirm my "Southerness."

 

[kyredneck]

Very well said. I thought Moore's article was excellent. As a southerner who can say ya'll with the best of them, I have no need to see or wear the Confederate battle flag to affirm my "Southerness."

Agree totally, it was well said, and I've never had an attachment to that symbol myself. The point in the OP is Graham is correct, it was him, not the flag.

I couldn't care less if SC chooses to drop the flag or keep it around. It's their business.

 

[Zaac]

Agree totally, it was well said, and I've never had an attachment to that symbol myself. The point in the OP is Graham is correct, it was him, not the flag.

I couldn't care less if SC chooses to drop the flag or keep it around. It's their business.

It should be the business of the United States. This is foolishness. Does South Sudan fly the flag of Sudan?

They lost a treasonous war and should not have the right to fly that treasonous, hate-representing flag over government property.

 

[kyredneck]

By all means, go start a movement to get them to take it down.

 

[Zaac]

By all means, go start a movement to get them to take it down.

It's already happening.

Nikki Haley To Call For Confederate Flag To Be Removed From South Carolina Capitol: Reports

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley (R) will call for the Confederate flag to be removed from the state capitol, multiple outlets reported Monday.

Haley is set to speak at a press conference at 4 p.m. ET Monday. According to CNN and AP, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) will join the governor and call for the flag to be placed in a museum.

Graham previously said the flag "is part of who we are," but that he would be "fine" with taking the symbol down.
...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/22/south-carolina-confederate-flag_n_7637644.html