I've Made a Decision

[Internet Theologian]

How may the motions of the Spirit in the godly be distinguished from the impulses of a natural conscience?

a. A natural conscience may sometimes provoke to the same thing as the Spirit does, but not from the same principle. Natural conscience is a spur to duty, but it drives a man to do his duties for fear of hell – as the galley-slave tugs at the oar for fear of being beaten – whereas the Spirit moves a child of God from a more noble principle. It makes him serve God out of choice, and esteem duty his privilege.

b. The impulses of a natural conscience drive men only to easier duties of religion, in which the heart is less exercised, like perfunctory reading or praying. But the motions of the Spirit in the godly go further, causing them to do the most irksome duties, like self-reflection, self-humbling; yes, perilous duties, like confessing Christ’s name in times of danger. Divine motions in the heart are like new wine which seeks vent. When God’s Spirit possesses a man, he carries him full sail through all difficulties.

The Godly Man's Picture - Thomas Watson

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The preacher promised me, no matter what, I am going to heaven when I die. I said the prayer and believed the prayer.

I've made a decision:

- Now I don't have to live for the Lord. He is savior, but not Lord.

I've made a decision:

- Now I don't have to read Scripture or pray, or even have a desire to do so.

I've made a decision:

- Now I don't have to love my neighbor as myself (take a look around, you'll see this in how some welcome and treat others right here) for I am going to heaven.

I've made a decision:

- Now I don't have to live a life of holiness and sanctification, that's just another decision anyhow, they taught me I can be a believer or a disciple, it is all up to me, and after all I am going to heaven.

I've made a decision:

- Now I don't have to pray or even feel like praying, for I am going to heaven.

I've made a decision:

- I don't have to have any desire to know or walk with God, for I am going to heaven.

I've made a decision:

- So it is OK for me to tell lies and misrepresent what others have said, for I am going to heaven.

I've made a decision:

- Now I know I don't have to go to church, I don't even have any desire to attend to where the Bride of Christ gathers, I don't like her anyhow, nor do I want to be around her, but I am going to heaven.

I've made a decision:

- So don't bother me with that Scripture stuff that shows what a genuine conversion looks like and a false one, I don't want to know! After all I am going to heaven.


(Gee after all of that, I wonder, if, when I get to heaven I will even like it there, I mean God will be there and those Christian people) Meh, that doesn't matter either. Don't think logically, theologically, or biblically and examine self, self, stop that! Yes, I made a decision and am going to heaven.

Good post IT,

This post illustrates what is unfortunately all too common these days, people trusting in themselves, something they have done, either a decision, an altar call coming forward, or the so called "sinners prayer" to get them to heaven rather than trusting solely in the blood of Christ as atonement for their sins. Such a person is not born again.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Good post IT,

This post illustrates what is unfortunately all too common these days, people trusting in themselves, something they have done, either a decision, an altar call coming forward, or the so called "sinners prayer" to get them to heaven rather than trusting solely in the blood of Christ as atonement for their sins. Such a person is not born again.

...'blind faith' rules the day. By the way thanks for the compliment.

 

[kyredneck]

the refugee from "bloody Breathitt" came close

Oh, I got it, the thread is two pronged. Is the theme about the error of 'free will decisional regeneration', or the error of the front-loaded works of Puritan Lordship Doctrine? It can go either way.

Concerning the error of "I made a decision" (you know, the thread title)"

27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory before God.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption: 1 Cor 1

Scripture makes it plain, no one decides, or chooses, to place themselves in Christ Jesus. God 'decided' before the foundation of the world who would be in Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

A decision to be ignorant perhaps. In your apparent belief of LS, as you infer in this post, you believe you need to make Christ "Lord of your life." That is the height of arrogance.
Really, can you command God to do anything. If you were a godless unregenerate wicked lost soul, Christ would still be your Lord whether you liked it or not. You can't MAKE Christ Lord; He already is. He is Lord of ALL Creation. He is Lord of All, including you whether you are obedient or disobedient to Him. One cannot command Christ to be Lord. Oh the folly of this doctrine!!
Christ is Lord! One cannot make him Lord.

Once again you accuse a poster of arrogance and saying things that he didn't say.
He said nothing about lordship salvation or anything else that you're accusing him of.
Another monster strawman attack.
This post really doesn't have to do with what the original post was talking about.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Once again you accuse a poster of arrogance and saying things that he didn't say.
He said nothing about lordship salvation or anything else that you're accusing him of.
Another monster strawman attack.
This post really doesn't have to do with what the original post was talking about.

He needs to tank a gander at 'The Ninth Commandment' thread, and the ninth commandment in Scripture. May God grant him repentance. Of course he argues about the necessity of repentance too while doing this.

Go figure.

Those who've taken offense at the OP do so because they support the ones represented in the thread. If the types represented doubt they've been converted (and they should) they rush in and tell them to remember when they said a prayer. Wouldn't want to cast a shadow of doubt that the preacher got them saved, right? I mean pride is in jeopardy, numbers as well. (and all of them are 'preachers' regardless of their church position).

This assurance/antinomian error that is propagated today was borne of other errors that crept into the church by men such as Chafer, Sandeman, Hodges, Pentecost, Walvoord. These errors are not all that old, yet those today preach them as if they were the beliefs of the early church or Scriptures. Frankly they are not.

True preachers on the other hand take them to Scriptures that examine their walk and profession of faith, which is the apostles objective in writing them, so they employ them in said manner. In so doing these are then labeled 'LS' preachers. Since the accusers cannot distinguish between examining for evidence (1 John, Galatians 5:16ff; 2 Cor. 13:5; 1 Cor. 15:2; Col. 1:23; John 8:30ff) and what works salvation is (when we understand full well John 6:63; Romans 3:28 etc) they conflate the two in order to ridicule and further advertise their obtuseness of the matter. Then as flawed logic leads to flawed logic they accuse these of 'works salvation'. This entire scenario shows a profound misunderstanding of the Gospels effect.

 

[OldRegular]

Once again you accuse a poster of arrogance and saying things that he didn't say.
He said nothing about lordship salvation or anything else that you're accusing him of.
Another monster strawman attack.
This post really doesn't have to do with what the original post was talking about.

Icon,
The "freewillers" will never in this life understand anything regarding the sovereignty of GOD! I suggest they all read Isaiah 40. If that is too much to ask perhaps these "grasshoppers" can find time to read the following:

Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

 

[Iconoclast]

"Internet Theologian

He needs to tank a gander at 'The Ninth Commandment' thread, and the ninth commandment in Scripture. May God grant him repentance. Of course he argues about the necessity of repentance too while doing this.

Go figure.

Yes....that seems to be the result.....he posts for the other person and projects what he thinks instead of what the person actually posts

Those who've taken offense at the OP do so because they support the ones represented in the thread.

Well yes....evidence had come forth to support this idea. a few weeks ago he claimed everyone in his church is saved.
If breathing is the only criteria then we could all make that statement.
Now it is true that all God has saved ,are saved. In any assembly unfortunately some attach themselves without the work of the Spirit.

If the types represented doubt they've been converted (and they should) they rush in and tell them to remember when they said a prayer.

I think this is the key point of the OP. They get talked into an emotional decision and after a time the emotion wears off. They return to a sinful lifestyle, except they try and cover sin with a sprinkling of religious activity.
While the cross work is once for all and complete....without the Spirit at work in the person they are not rightly related to it.

People rush in to offer a carnal assurance to this unconverted religious professor...they create the "carnal christian" heresy to give this goat false assurance. Even sometimes if the person themselves begin to have "doubts" as they observe real believers serving God, praying, etc....the doubts are quickly quenched .
They are told not to doubt at all.

Wouldn't want to cast a shadow of doubt that the preacher got them saved, right? I mean pride is in jeopardy, numbers as well. (and all of them are 'preachers' regardless of their church position)

.

It could be for these reasons, or it could be a sincerely mistaken view of salvation/sanctification as we see many offer here on BB.

This assurance/antinomian error that is propagated today was borne of other errors that crept into the church by men such as Chafer, Sandeman, Hodges, Pentecost, Walvoord. These errors are not all that old, yet those today preach them as if they were the beliefs of the early church or Scriptures. Frankly they are not.

Yes I have not seen any of this thought in the ODT. They erred on the side of caution and sometimes went to far and caused believers to be burdened and lack a proper assurance which is needful to be active in joyful service.;

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:


17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

True preachers on the other hand take them to Scriptures that examine their walk and profession of faith, which is the apostles objective in writing them, so they employ them in said manner. In so doing these are then called 'LS' preachers. Since the accusers cannot distinguish between examining for evidence (1 John, Galatians 5:16ff; 2 Cor. 13:5; 1 Cor. 15:2; Col. 1:23; John 8:30ff) and what works salvation is (when we understand full well John 6:63; Romans 3:28 etc) they conflate the two in order to ridicule and further advertise their obtuseness of the matter. Then as flawed logic leads to flawed logic they accuse these of 'works salvation'. This entire scenario shows a profound misunderstanding of the Gospels effect.

yes

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon,
The "freewillers" will never in this life understand anything regarding the sovereignty of GOD! I suggest they all read Isaiah 40. If that is too much to ask perhaps these "grasshoppers" can find time to read the following:

Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Yes brother indeed.....A small view of an infinite God can not lead to healthy truth.SickSickSick

 

[Iconoclast]

Internet Theologian

How may the motions of the Spirit in the godly be distinguished from the impulses of a natural conscience?

Leave it to ODT to get at the truth of the issues....this is the kind of post that is helpful!

a. A natural conscience may sometimes provoke to the same thing as the Spirit does, but not from the same principle.

This is mature godly thought, the product of being the blessed man of psalm 1

Natural conscience is a spur to duty, but it drives a man to do his duties for fear of hell – as the galley-slave tugs at the oar for fear of being beaten – whereas the Spirit moves a child of God from a more noble principle. It makes him serve God out of choice, and esteem duty his privilege.

this is the key right here....free grace/ free to serve joyfully as sons

b. The impulses of a natural conscience drive men only to easier duties of religion, in which the heart is less exercised, like perfunctory reading or praying.

indeed...

But the motions of the Spirit in the godly go further, causing them to do the most irksome duties, like self-reflection, self-humbling; yes, perilous duties, like confessing Christ’s name in times of danger. Divine motions in the heart are like new wine which seeks vent. When God’s Spirit possesses a man, he carries him full sail through all difficulties.

No doubt...

The Godly Man's Picture - Thomas Watson[/QUOTE]

 

[Internet Theologian]

Internet Theologian


Leave it to ODT to get at the truth of the issues....this is the kind of post that is helpful!



This is mature godly thought, the product of being the blessed man of psalm 1



this is the key right here....free grace/ free to serve joyfully as sons


indeed...


No doubt...

The Godly Man's Picture - Thomas Watson

I thought the quote was fitting for the OP, glad to find another who got the same from it, and that it was profitable!

 

[agedman]

The Holy Spirit will use the Scriptures to bring those in whom the Father has given to Christ into salvation. That some are influenced by messages on hell or on messages on heaven has little to do with who is redeemed and who is just emotively reacting in the moment.

The Scriptures state that some of the Word falls upon hearts that start to grow but end up worthless. That ground was never prepared for the seed, because the purpose of that ground was for other matters.

In the OP, the list of "I've made a decision" is not indicating that some may actually be saved or not.

To judge salvation is not the believer's responsibility, neither is judgment upon who is worthy of salvation, who is actually saved, and who will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

That some of the OP may actually be saved is not within the right of the believer to judge.

What the believer may judge is the matters concerning maturing and maturity - both of themselves and of others.

I am most certainly not of the "easy believism" group. Such is (imo) damaged the reputation and authority of believers, and watered down the message that one should mature as a believer.

But, how does the salvation revealed in a person? By vocal and overt belief.

Isn't that basic to what the brother of Jesus expressed when he wrote what we label James?

 

[Internet Theologian]

In the OP, the list of "I've made a decision" is not indicating that some may actually be saved or not.

To judge salvation is not the believer's responsibility,

The bold is a popular thought but is premature and not actually true:

- Believers should examine themselves and take the test of true conversion. In that sense it is the believers responsibility.

- These believers may ask for elder assistance in discussing this matter. The elder reserves the right to come to determinations based upon profession, fruit, evidence, all based upon Scriptural.

- Those involved in cultic groups or other false religions which deny Deity of Christ, His sufficiency of salvation, that believe salvation is not in Christ's work by faith, and admix works with Christ. These may be assured they have not been born from above due to their belief in another gospel; 2 John; Galatians 1:8 and following. True believers can assist these in showing them the truth of the Gospel and its effect. Determination can be made whether one had been exposed to the true Gospel or to one of error.

neither is judgment upon who is worthy of salvation...

Agreed. None are worthy.

That some of the OP may actually be saved is not within the right of the believer to judge.

OK...but you...

What the believer may judge is the matters concerning maturing and maturity - both of themselves and of others.

But, how does the salvation revealed in a person? By vocal and overt belief.

...in effect do exactly that right here, and reference this as Scriptural (James). In the above this is what I have alluded to as well.

 

[Iconoclast]

Agedman,

We are our brothers keeper and we are cautioned to be concerned but not overbearing if we see someone in a fault.
Gal.6.
Great care and wisdom should be taken in this even self examination.
Some error right here and try to do what only the Holy Spirit can do.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Agedman,

We are our brothers keeper and we are cautioned to be concerned but not overbearing if we see someone in a fault.
Gal.6.
Great care and wisdom should be taken in this even self examination.
Some error right here and try to do what only the Holy Spirit can do.

Many today march forward presumptuously, garbed in false doctrine that has emboldened them to do so, you are correct then to state we are our brothers keeper.

 

[agedman]

The bold is a popular thought but is premature and not actually true:

- Believers should examine themselves and take the test of true conversion. In that sense it is the believers responsibility.

Agreed. This is Scriptural, but it does not apply to one believer making such judgement upon another who claims to be a believer.

- These believers may ask for elder assistance in discussing this matter. The elder reserves the right to come to determinations based upon profession, fruit, evidence, all based upon Scriptural.

There is no such permission given in Scripture. In fact, there is no such permission of one going to an elder for some kind of check up.

The Scriptures specify that it is the Scriptures that the believer must look to for determination.

- Those involved in cultic groups or other false religions which deny Deity of Christ, His sufficiency of salvation, that believe salvation is not in Christ's work by faith, and admix works with Christ. These may be assured they have not been born from above due to their belief in another gospel; 2 John; Galatians 1:8 and following. True believers can assist these in showing them the truth of the Gospel and its effect. Determination can be made whether one had been exposed to the true Gospel or to one of error.

2 John concerns itself with the teaching of those who are "cult leaders." NOT the membership of the cults. Some of the membership may actually be redeemed, that is not for the believer's to judge. One who publishes, teaches, and has influence over matters of doctrine is the thrust of 2 John.

Galatians 1: teaches the same principle as 2 John. The condemnation is directed toward one who publishes, teaches, and has influence.

Certainly, there is a matter of determination that can be made as to the validity of a teaching, and "whether one had (has) been exposed..." But that is NOT a mater of judgment of salvation, but a mater of judgment upon the teaching. IF that exposure brings salvation (or not) is the responsibility of the Father.

OK...but you...

Agedman said:
That the believer may judge is the matters concerning maturing and maturity - both of themselves and of others.

But, how does the salvation revealed in a person? By vocal and overt belief.

...do exactly that right here.

1) Believers may judge matters concerning maturing and maturity.
2) As shown above using the 2 Scripture references you provided, believers are warned about those who puff up as spiritual leaders yet teach contrary to the Scriptures. Such are (imo) not only already condemned, but are displaying such condemnation by their teaching.
3) Salvation is revealed,displayed, shown and open for all to witness by the vocal (the testimony) and the overt (the manner of living).

Do those three items show my post as error?

Nope, because at no point is it a matter of right for a believer to make the eternal state of another person a matter of their own ability to appoint. Such belief as the papists hold in "last rights, penance, confessionals..." sometimes writhes its way into the modern thinking of the Baptist, in that one may desire to point to sins committed at proof of the eternal estate assigned.

 

[agedman]

Agedman,

We are our brothers keeper and we are cautioned to be concerned but not overbearing if we see someone in a fault.
Gal.6.
Great care and wisdom should be taken in this even self examination.
Some error right here and try to do what only the Holy Spirit can do.

I agree,

But such judgment upon the life and living a person expresses and experiences does not extend to declaring a person is not saved.

If, that person, who is in error is a member of the assembly and approached by one or more members of that assembly, and the results are the one in error repents, they are then received, but if such repent not, they are to be put out of the assembly. The Scriptures state that it is not for loss of salvation, but for the destruction of the body of flesh - the soul yet redeemed.

There is a huge difference between making judgment of a person's living and conduct in comparison to their eternal estate of lost or saved.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Agreed. This is Scriptural, but it does not apply to one believer making such judgement upon another who claims to be a believer.

There is no such permission given in Scripture. In fact, there is no such permission of one going to an elder for some kind of check up.

The Scriptures specify that it is the Scriptures that the believer must look to for determination.




Do those three items show my post as error?

Nope, because at no point is it a matter of right for a believer to make the eternal state of another person a matter of their own ability to appoint. Such belief as the papists hold in "last rights, penance, confessionals..." sometimes writhes its way into the modern thinking of the Baptist, in that one may desire to point to sins committed at proof of the eternal estate assigned.

One need not have a verse to prove that those who speak with elders concerning the state of their souls are in the right for doing so, Hebrews 13:17, for all matter tending sanctification, salvation are the matters to which elders are concerned and gifted. By the way I did not mention the believer to look to the elder for determination but have implied they both, in searching Scriptures can make determination and the elder can lend towards this with his knowledge in them and in prayer.

I believe they do show your post in some slight error agedman concerning the above. The entirety of 1 John talks not only of self, and testing of self, but of others in its examination, and is written as admonition to those believers to do so. There is 1 John 2:19 as an indictment to believers, showing who is not of us, those who defect, apostatize. But not only this, but 'Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.' 4:1, as tied with 2 John, and those who do not abide in the teachings of Christ have neither the Father nor the Son.

This is why I still conclude your teaching above as somewhat premature albeit it is a popular notion.

 

[JonC]

I’m torn when it comes to the idea that we “make a decision” to be saved. At first, I want to outright denounce the position, but that may not be the most biblical approach. Regardless of what our theologies may teach us, throughout scripture people are presented with a choice and a decision is demanded of them. I understand avoiding the stance that it is us that decides, but essentially when all is said and done it is not apart from “us” that that decision is made. As Spurgeon once remarked, we go willingly against our wills. God draws us, but we are drawn. The Spirit works within us, but it is not a fruitless work. We are commanded to repent and believe, and if we are to be saved it is not without repentance and belief. I understand that this is the work of God, and that faith is a grace of God, but sometimes it seems to me that in an attempt to avoid humanistic soteriology we sometimes ignore that there is an appropriate response to the gospel, a call that must be answered. The difference is not whether or not man makes a decision, it's how that decision is made.

 

[Jerome]

Such belief as the papists hold in "last rights, penance, confessionals..." sometimes writhes its way into the modern thinking of the Baptist

So true, and as Spurgeon noted:

"God has not appointed salvation by Inquiry Rooms and talks with ministers, but by your laying your own hand upon the Sacrifice which He has appointed! If you will have Christ, you shall be saved! If you will not have Him, you must perish! All the talking to you in the world cannot help you one jot if you refuse your Savior! Sitting in your pew this morning, without speaking to me or any living man or woman, I exhort you to believe in Jesus! Stretch out your withered hand, God helping you, and lay it on the head of Christ, and say, “I believe in the merit of His precious blood. I look to the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.” Why, Man, you are saved as sure as you are alive, for he that lays the hand of faith upon this Sacrifice is saved thereby!" —"Putting the Hand Upon the Head of the Sacrifice"